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Thread: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

  1. #61
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Drafting a reliever in the top 3 rounds generally is a waste, but Stewart wasn't a reliever to the Reds. I do like the fact that we can wait to see what happens with Stewart, but not Boxberger or Hamilton or anyone else because we didn't take Stassi/Bailey/Oliver/Whoever else got overpaid for where they should have gone in the first place.
    No, we will wait to see what happens with all of them. Is there ever any other way?

    I liked the Hamilton pick at the time and I like it now. Ditto for Leake. Of course there were a couple others I may have preferred, but I can live with 'em.

    Meanwhile, I just wish the Reds would take a couple big chances later (or earlier) in the draft. I'd like to see some premium talent brought into the organization. In the end, that's all I'm asking for.
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  3. #62
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    No, we will wait to see what happens with all of them. Is there ever any other way?

    I liked the Hamilton pick at the time and I like it now. Ditto for Leake. Of course there were a couple others I may have preferred, but I can live with 'em.

    Meanwhile, I just wish the Reds would take a couple big chances later (or earlier) in the draft. I'd like to see some premium talent brought into the organization. In the end, that's all I'm asking for.
    The Reds have premium talent in the system. You talk about it like we are the freakin Astro's or something with two prospects worth talking about. Or the Padres prior to this year. Would it be nice if we were able to add 4 million in extra guys down in the draft? Absolutely. We didn't go out and play like the Mets or Cubs though. We spent plenty of cash, more than 17 other teams in baseball.

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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    So, Beni, you're dogging Cincinnati (especially Reynolds and Buckley) because of a lack of premium talent in the organization?

    I don't buy it.

    Sulburan, Lotzkar, and Hillenbrandt all exhibited TOR stuff before injuries and all were late round-ish picks. Good picks, all.
    Lotzkar was a first round (sandwich) pick, and he got hurt.
    I liked the Sulbaran pick- in fact that's EXACTLY what I'm advocating more of.
    Hildenbrandt exhibited TOR stuff? In all one of his starts outside of the GCL? Color me dazzled.

    Yorman Rodriguez signed for serious bank out of Latin America and is hitting very well in Billings as a 17-year-old, the very definition of premium talent.
    Yep, I'd like more please. No resting on the laurels.

    Wood, another sandwich pick, has performed as well as any pitcher in the minor leagues this season.
    Actually a second round pick. And that was under a different regime (not Buckley.)

    I think the problem here is one of perception. No team in baseball has a farm system so plentiful that it has four or five mlb-ready premium talents year after year. That happens only once or twice a decade in all of baseball.
    Let's just look at what two teams did in the last eighteen months without breaking the bank:

    The Orioles figured out a way to go from nothing in the system to bringing in Weiters, Jones, Tillman, and Matusz and debuting them all at the same time.

    Then they went out and spent big on the draft this year- the later rounds in particular.

    Similarly, the A's brought in Michael Inoa, Brett Wallace, Jemile Weeks, Grant Green, Max Stassi, Chris Carter, and Gio Gonzalez all in the last eighteen months.

    That's the kind of premium talent acquisition I'd like to see.
    Last edited by Benihana; 08-19-2009 at 05:58 PM.
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    So you came up with 3 of 32 teams. Of those 3 teams 2 got at least a chunk of their "premium" talent via the trade of the veteran so should not be included in your "Reds don't take risks or bring in premium talent" rant.
    "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Do the A's have money that grows on vegetable vines?

    Because they sure seem to spend more than the Reds. They signed Green for more than Leake and they still had enough to sign Stassi. And they signed Inoa last year, so don't go crying Yorman on me.

    As far as Bailey goes, TJ surgery sure seems to scare you away from him, but it didn't scare you enough to draft Mesoraco in the first round and give him millions?!?!?!

    A's may have more money for this area than the Reds. Billy's not spending it on the pitching staff. He's going to give something like 100 starts this season to rookie pitchers. The number was already well over 60 when I was out there a month ago.

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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The Reds have premium talent in the system. You talk about it like we are the freakin Astro's or something with two prospects worth talking about. Or the Padres prior to this year. Would it be nice if we were able to add 4 million in extra guys down in the draft? Absolutely. We didn't go out and play like the Mets or Cubs though. We spent plenty of cash, more than 17 other teams in baseball.
    Listen, as you know- I am the guy that likes to make Top 20 lists of Reds prospects every month. I know what we have in the system, and quite honestly after Alonso, Yorman, and maybe Frazier, it's a lot of role players. You even said yourself that none of the Bats' top prospects (that were probably 4-6 in the system before this week) will have a significant offensive impact at the major league level. Maybe some of those guys will emerge into the higher class, but I'd like to see more guys with the potential to be considered at that level. The fact of the matter is that it just doesn't cost that much money in the grand scheme of things when you're talking about a major league franchise.

    Maybe a Mark Fleury or a Dave Sappelt will put everything together and become a superstar. Maybe a premium talent like Yonder or Yorman turns out to be a bust. Of course this stuff can be dynamic. I'd just like to be excited about a couple of guys we could slot into that Grade A category immediately upon acquisition- even if it costs a little extra- and not have to hope some role player with huge question marks suddenly catches lightning in a bottle and puts it all together.
    Last edited by Benihana; 08-19-2009 at 06:14 PM.
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbachunk View Post
    So you came up with 3 of 32 teams. Of those 3 teams 2 got at least a chunk of their "premium" talent via the trade of the veteran so should not be included in your "Reds don't take risks or bring in premium talent" rant.
    Because those teams don't also feign the illusion of contending when they're really not. They realize you're either contending or you're rebuilding and there's really no in between. Taking risks includes trading some of your best players when you clearly can't contend, assuming the return is right. The Reds realized this in 2003, and that netted them Aaron Harang for Jose Guillen. If they had better scouts, they could do more of those types of trades, but alas I digress. Unfortunately, that was essentially the last time they realized that you should either buy or sell, not tread water until you drown.

    FWIW, I could come up with several other teams that have brought in significantly more premium talent over the last four years. Check the Overdrafting and Overslotting thread (think Giants, Dodgers, Tigers, Braves, Mariners, etc.)
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    A's may have more money for this area than the Reds. Billy's not spending it on the pitching staff. He's going to give something like 100 starts this season to rookie pitchers. The number was already well over 60 when I was out there a month ago.
    At this point, I think we'd all rather see them spend it on the draft like the A's than waste it on a bunch of major league retreads (Taveras, Hairston, Lincoln, etc.) in order to dupe gullible fans into thinking they're trying to contend. At least I would.

    That's the whole point of my argument.
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    You are now arguing your draft point with knowing when to rebuild or not.
    "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

  11. #70
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbachunk View Post
    You are now arguing your draft point with knowing when to rebuild or not.
    No, I'm arguing that everybody in the world knew the Reds couldn't contend for the last four years. So why not dedicate a few more million dollars to the draft over that period of time? Ditto for this year going into next year.

    If that includes trading some of your players (before they lose all of their value) so be it.

    Anyway I'm done arguing this point. I think I've made my opinion clear.
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  12. #71
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    At this point, I think we'd all rather see them spend it on the draft like the A's than waste it on a bunch of major league retreads (Taveras, Hairston, Lincoln, etc.) in order to dupe gullible fans into thinking they're trying to contend. At least I would.

    That's the whole point of my argument.

    Actually I admire Beane's courage in effectively rolling over the whole rotation in one year.

  13. #72
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    So, Beni, you're dogging Cincinnati (especially Reynolds and Buckley) because of a lack of premium talent in the organization?

    I don't buy it.

    Alonso, according to the experts, is a top 15 prospect in the game. Good pick.
    Frazier looks like a starter at a middle infield position and an offensive plus as a sandwich 1st rounder. Good pick.
    Sulburan, Lotzkar, and Hillenbrandt all exhibited TOR stuff before injuries and all were late round-ish picks. Good picks, all.
    Yorman Rodriguez signed for serious bank out of Latin America and is hitting very well in Billings as a 17-year-old, the very definition of premium talent.
    Wood, another sandwich pick, has performed as well as any pitcher in the minor leagues this season.

    I think the problem here is one of perception. No team in baseball has a farm system so plentiful that it has four or five mlb-ready premium talents year after year. That happens only once or twice a decade in all of baseball.
    Even if they bat 1.000 on the still-healthy guys you listed (and have one of the injured guys break through), they still need more.

    Basically you can claim 30 farm systems have plenty of top-end talent. The question facing the Reds is whether there's enough should the team ever choose rebuild via a youth movement. Right now the Reds are running a fairly standard farm system, the kind designed to plug in talent on a gradual basis. That's great if it's complemented by a good major league product. If not, it's just a system for cycling a few good players through a bad product.

    I think Beni's point is the Reds major league product necessitates more extraordinary efforts on the farm.
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Even if they bat 1.000 on the still-healthy guys you listed (and have one of the injured guys break through), they still need more.

    Basically you can claim 30 farm systems have plenty of top-end talent. The question facing the Reds is whether there's enough should the team ever choose rebuild via a youth movement. Right now the Reds are running a fairly standard farm system, the kind designed to plug in talent on a gradual basis. That's great if it's complemented by a good major league product. If not, it's just a system for cycling a few good players through a bad product.

    I think Beni's point is the Reds major league product necessitates more extraordinary efforts on the farm.
    Well said- thank you. You phrased it better in one post than I did in 20.
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Lotzkar was a first round (sandwich) pick, and he got hurt.
    I liked the Sulbaran pick- in fact that's EXACTLY what I'm advocating more of.
    Hildenbrandt exhibited TOR stuff? In all one of his starts outside of the GCL? Color me dazzled.



    Yep, I'd like more please. No resting on the laurels.



    Actually a second round pick. And that was under a different regime (not Buckley.)



    Let's just look at what two teams did in the last eighteen months without breaking the bank:

    The Orioles figured out a way to go from nothing in the system to bringing in Weiters, Jones, Tillman, and Matusz and debuting them all at the same time.

    Then they went out and spent big on the draft this year- the later rounds in particular.

    Similarly, the A's brought in Michael Inoa, Brett Wallace, Jemile Weeks, Grant Green, Max Stassi, Chris Carter, and Gio Gonzalez all in the last eighteen months.

    That's the kind of premium talent acquisition I'd like to see.
    See, the A's Haul Looks exciting... The Reds haul looks, well like a Leake and a Boxberger... I really dont think the Reds are evaluating Domestic Talent very well... At all...

    I didn't even like the Yonder pick because the Reds have Votto, and would have rather had Gordon Beckham...

    I just think the Reds need to get some good eyes on the domestic amatuer players because there is nothing exciting about Leake, to me... As our First Rounder...

  16. #75
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    Re: How would you rate the Reds' 2009 draft signings?

    Any new(er) thoughts on this past year's draft?


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