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Thread: So how did Stubbs look out there?

  1. #46
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    What's funny is comparing Stubbs' downside with Taveras' upside. They're awfully similar. Only Stubbs' doesn't cost millions of bucks. Then you factor in Stubbs' upside... The Taveras signing would be hilarious if it wasn't pathetically depressing. CF and leadoff should be a Stubbs/Dickerson platoon for the remainder in 2009 and for the start of 2010 if Stubbs doesn't completely embarrass himself at the plate.

    If it was me, I pay somebody as much as it takes to trade Taveras this offseason, essentially up to his entire salary, just to get something of value out of him. Otherwise, he can caddy for Heisey in Louisville next year because his roster spot needs to go to a LH corner OF who can platoon with Gomes.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 08-20-2009 at 08:29 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  3. #47
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    I would tend to agree with that, though he will need greatly improved contact at the plate in order to succeed. Regardless, I like him, and he's vastly superior to WT in CF.

    My concern is that we already have a guy who I believe can play elite CF defense while posting a 370+OBP, and leading off (Chris Dickerson). Will the Reds use Stubbs as Dickerson's RHH platoon partner once Bruce returns, and beyond? Will he sometimes also spell Bruce versus LHP while staying in CF? Can he develop just facing LHP? Is he going to be a trading chip? Who is going to be the OF's big bopper to offset the relatively light production afforded by Dickerson, Stubbs, and Bruce (so far)?

    I'm excited for Drew though, and excited about seeing more of him in CF for now.
    I just don't see the elite CF defense from Dickerson. I see OK CF defense, nothing more. In fact, that has been one of the disappointments of Dickerson's season. He's average defensively in center and really no better than average in either corner. He has better range than most corner outfielders, but struggles around the wall and on the move.

    Anyway, if Stubbs can match Dickerson offensively and be legitimately great in CF, then he's a valuable player.

  4. #48
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    What's funny is comparing Stubbs' downside with Taveras' upside. They're awfully similar. Only Stubbs' doesn't cost millions of bucks. Then you factor in Stubbs' upside... The Taveras signing would be hilarious if it wasn't pathetically depressing. CF and leadoff should be a Stubbs/Dickerson platoon for the remainder in 2009 and for the start of 2010 if Stubbs doesn't completely embarrass himself at the plate.

    If it was me, I pay somebody as much as it takes to trade Taveras this offseason, essentially up to his entire salary, just to get something of value out of him. Otherwise, he can caddy for Heisey in Louisville next year because his roster spot needs to go to a LH corner OF who can platoon with Gomes.
    That's what I really don't get about the Taveras signing. At all. Jocketty HAD to know what Stubbs was and that he was close, right? So why go the second year for Taveras? At that kind of coin? What the heck was he thinking with that?

    Whatever else Stubbs might or might not be with the bat, he fields circles around Taveras, and any scout and observer in the game knew that last off-season. Stubbs' glove has been ranked among the best in all of baseball in CF, minors or majors, since he made his debut with the Reds organization. I really don't know what Jocketty was thinking with the second year, and it bothers me, a ton, that he made that kind of commitment to Taveras with a guy like Stubbs in house and close.

  5. #49
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    This team has guys that are going to be capable of driving runners in (Votto, Phillips, Rolen, Bruce). I see no reason you can't throw two high OBP guys in Left and Center and 1-2 in the order. If you want more OBP, you throw Hanigan in there. If you want more run producers, you pick up Hernandez's option (which I am not against doing). Getting a run producer at SS could help as well (J.J. Hardy)
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    If Stubbs can produce a .350 OBA he'll be a viable major league CF.

    But that might be a big if right now.

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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    If Stubbs can produce a .350 OBA he'll be a viable major league CF.

    But that might be a big if right now.
    How much time do you give him to do that?

    Point being, he's going to need time and ABs in order to get better. Some patience is required, just like people are being patient with Bruce, and people were patient with EdE.
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    Will the Reds use Stubbs as Dickerson's RHH platoon partner once Bruce returns, and beyond?




    one of Reds' many problems (and a lot of teams have such problems) is that they immediately give young players too much responsibility after promoting them, then upon failure get rid of them. Homer Bailey is a classic example, but so is Jay Bruce. Contrast that to Josh Hamilton. Who's flourishing?

    It's just not how a real workplace operates. be real world: give them small responsibilities and if opportunities arise and they take advantage of them, move them up.

    I know that this flies in the face of development dogma (e.g. platoons hurt young kids, who supposedly need reps in order to learn to hit lefties or righties), but first I don't trust development dogma and second Stubbs is no wunderkind. He needs to be in a role where the team gets the most that it can out of its investment.

    why the Reds have never made princeton an offer is obviously due to the fact that such common sense would never fit in.
    2015, baby!

  9. #53
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    one of Reds' many problems (and a lot of teams have such problems) is that they immediately give young players too much responsibility after promoting them, then upon failure get rid of them. Homer Bailey is a classic example, but so is Jay Bruce. Contrast that to Josh Hamilton. Who's flourishing?

    It's just not how a real workplace operates. be real world: give them small responsibilities and if opportunities arise and they take advantage of them, move them up.

    I know that this flies in the face of development dogma (e.g. platoons hurt young kids, who supposedly need reps in order to learn to hit lefties or righties), but first I don't trust development dogma and second Stubbs is no wunderkind. He needs to be in a role where the team gets the most that it can out of its investment.
    Not a one size fits all thing. Hamilton has always had a sizeable platoon split. In addition, he was coming back from 4 years of inactivity. Stubbs, over the course of his entire minor league career, does not have a significant split (he's been slightly, only slightly, better against righties). No health/durability red flags, though he should be rested from time to time, like just about any player.

    Speed and defense do not slump, and Stubbs, if he can learn to muster a decent OBP in the bigs, can be an asset to the team on an everyday basis, given these assets. He may be a better defender than Dickerson, and he is very likely a better baserunner/basestealer. The team is going nowhere in the standings, so it is a perfect opportunity to see what kind of aptitude he's got for adjusting to the game at the major league level, which will inform whether he can approach his ceiling, which is pretty high.

    I do agree re: Bruce. Baker installed him in the #3 spot in the order once Junior got hurt, and the kid caved in. His problems vs lefties have persisted, dramatically. I also agree re: Bailey. But I think Stubbs is a different story, for reasons noted, and for the fact that he's a few years older than the other guys were and has already had to make adjustments throughout his professional career. I think that makes him less vulnerable to collapsing under the weight of expectations and the inevitable rough patches. He may never be a great ballplayer, or even a real good one, but he has real upside, and the organization would be remiss, in my opinion, if they cramp his potential by trying to make an instant decision about what he can't do. That's what this message board is for.

    Rest him, sure. Even put him in a kind of rotation with the other OFs, and, as Baker has suggested he'll do, pick a spot here and there to give him a break against a particularly tough guy (we all saw what Cain did to him). All that makes sense to me. But I would not place him in a strict platoon, hitting only against lefties. He should be starting at least 2/3s to 3/4s of the games from here on out, in my opinion.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  10. #54
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Not a one size fits all thing.
    IMO, it needs to be. a team needs to have a system and stick with it in a disciplined fashion. teams put too much emphasis on the hope brought on by their young players, who need to earn their stripes by apprenticeship. not only that, I suspect that apprenticeships would actually help development and build esprit de corps.
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  11. #55
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post




    one of Reds' many problems (and a lot of teams have such problems) is that they immediately give young players too much responsibility after promoting them, then upon failure get rid of them. Homer Bailey is a classic example, but so is Jay Bruce. Contrast that to Josh Hamilton. Who's flourishing?

    It's just not how a real workplace operates. be real world: give them small responsibilities and if opportunities arise and they take advantage of them, move them up.

    I know that this flies in the face of development dogma (e.g. platoons hurt young kids, who supposedly need reps in order to learn to hit lefties or righties), but first I don't trust development dogma and second Stubbs is no wunderkind. He needs to be in a role where the team gets the most that it can out of its investment.

    why the Reds have never made princeton an offer is obviously due to the fact that such common sense would never fit in.
    Food for thought also is the Reds current wisdom that players who are near major league ready are better off getting "regular reps" or starting pitchers are better off "getting their regular turn" in the minor leagues rather than letting them start out in part time roles. Not bench players, or the dreaded long reliever, but part time roles.

    Right now, I keep on hearing excuse after excuse for not promoting some guys who could probably help out now as "we want them to get regular at-bats in the minors." I'm not so sure I agree with that treatment of your up and coming starters.

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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    IMO, it needs to be. a team needs to have a system and stick with it in a disciplined fashion. teams put too much emphasis on the hope brought on by their young players, who need to earn their stripes by apprenticeship. not only that, I suspect that apprenticeships would actually help development and build esprit de corps.

    The minor leagues are the apprenticeship, and the Reds are currently using it in a very formulaic way, which sounds like what you'd approve. Everybody in the Reds' clubhouse knows Stubbs has paid his dues. At the same time, the vet he's replacing has failed, unequivocably. So, ducks are in a row, no feathers should be ruffled. The counter-example is Hamilton, who you cite as the one who was handled correctly. Apparently, his treatment (which of course was over-the-top idiosyncratic) led to some uneasy feelings in the clubhouse.

    Look at the Tigers. Talent rules. Porcello and Perry promoted to the majors out of spring training. Point being, know the player. If he's got the talent, don't micromanage him. Let him try to show it.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  13. #57
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Stubbs' walkoff HR was the highlight of the second half for me.

    Loved the pie in the face too; it never gets old!
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    The minor leagues are the apprenticeship, and the Reds are currently using it in a very formulaic way, which sounds like what you'd approve.
    if I'd approve it, then why am I questioning it? it's not a great system, IMO

    Reds even need to move starters up from A ball to AA bullpen before moving into AA rotation, and same deal as they go from AA to AAA.
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    if I'd approve it, then why am I questioning it? it's not a great system, IMO

    Reds even need to move starters up from A ball to AA bullpen before moving into AA rotation, and same deal as they go from AA to AAA.
    I don't know if I agree with that. There are a lot of pitchers who just don't have the arm to pitch out of the bullpen. I know there were some pitchers at Michigan that it didn't matter if they pitched one inning or six, you'd have to give them five days to rest before they could throw effectively again. You cannot have a one-size-fits-all strategy for developing pitchers, it just can't work that way.
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    You cannot have a one-size-fits-all strategy for developing pitchers, it just can't work that way.
    all of this can't-do stuff. there's so much developmental dogma that doesn't work.
    2015, baby!


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