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Thread: So how did Stubbs look out there?

  1. #61
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    The minor leagues are the apprenticeship, and the Reds are currently using it in a very formulaic way, which sounds like what you'd approve. Everybody in the Reds' clubhouse knows Stubbs has paid his dues. At the same time, the vet he's replacing has failed, unequivocably. So, ducks are in a row, no feathers should be ruffled. The counter-example is Hamilton, who you cite as the one who was handled correctly. Apparently, his treatment (which of course was over-the-top idiosyncratic) led to some uneasy feelings in the clubhouse.

    Look at the Tigers. Talent rules. Porcello and Perry promoted to the majors out of spring training. Point being, know the player. If he's got the talent, don't micromanage him. Let him try to show it.
    I think the model that Princeton is getting at would be analogous to the surgeon track. From high school, to undergrad (Rookie/A ball) to medical school (AA) to residency (AAA) to surgery (majors). But surgeons are not taken from residency, put in surgery and turned loose on a patient having a life and death operation. The new surgeon is going to be given a small role in the operating room or given simple procedures, with increasing responsibilities as he gets experience, until one day he is ready to be the head surgeon on a procedure, and increasingly complex procedures (starter/starting pitcher).

    The point of the analogy is that there is such a vast difference between AAA and the majors that it is often career suicide when you take a guy from residency to major surgery and turn him loose on the job. Of course, there will be some super genius doctors that could handle it, but as a method that produces consistent results, the apprenticeship model at the major league level makes a lot of sense. Of course, you have to identify the right apprentices, which is really what the minor leagues are for.
    Last edited by traderumor; 08-21-2009 at 11:45 AM.

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  3. #62
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    The point of the analogy is that there is such a vast difference between AAA and the majors that it is often career suicide when you take a guy from residency to major surgery and turn him loose on the job. Of course, there will be some super genius doctors that could handle it, but as a method that produces consistent results, the apprenticeship model at the major league level makes a lot of sense. Of course, you have to identify the right apprentices, which is really what the minor leagues is for.
    So, what is the apprenticeship you'd propose for Stubbs? As I've noted, there's no platoon split.
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    I agree with Princeton in this regard.

    Develop a system that can train players to be adequate major league ball players. Stick to that system. Than find players who can flourish in said system.

    Don't draft the guy from Michigan if he wouldn't progress through your system well. There are probably 10 guys you could draft at a given spot in any draft. The deciding point can be, will this player's skills be enhanced by my way of doing things in the minors.

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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    So, what is the apprenticeship you'd propose for Stubbs? As I've noted, there's no platoon split.
    A platoon partner that meets or beats his production on a split. Platoon also implies it is split driven, when really all you need it to be is a two players who provide similar or better production when they are in the game. Part-time would probably be a better term to use in such an arrangement.

    Assuming what you say is true of Stubbs regarding splits, that actually makes him an easier match to maximize the splits.

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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Develop a system that can train players to be adequate major league ball players
    Adequate? Every player?

    Stick to that system. Than find players who can flourish in said system
    .

    What does this mean in terms of baseball skills? To me, it sounds like theoretical mumbo jumbo.

    Don't draft the guy from Michigan if he wouldn't progress through your system well
    I don't see how you know how well a player will progress before he starts playing. Seems like a model for trying to avoid failure as opposed to reaching for possible success.

    The deciding point can be, will this player's skills be enhanced by my way of doing things in the minors.
    Some teaching should be organization-wide. No doubt about it. But the devil's in the details. Should all pitchers throw the same pitches? Of course not. Should all hitters have similar mechanics? No. Should all players have the same practice habits? Not really. Can all players think the same way (the way the coaches think)? Of course not. There has to be recognition of a player's particular abilities, strengths and weaknesses, as well as a willingness to take the time to learn how the player thinks. What does he think he can do? What does he want to learn? How does he handle failure? If you don't know these things, you will have a hard time helping the player get better.

    Every player is unique, to an important extent.
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    A platoon partner that meets or beats his production on a split. Platoon also implies it is split driven, when really all you need it to be is a two players who provide similar or better production when they are in the game. Part-time would probably be a better term to use in such an arrangement.

    Assuming what you say is true of Stubbs regarding splits, that actually makes him an easier match to maximize the splits.
    I don't understand what this means. Sounds like, play him when he'll do well. Or, play him when you know the other guys won't do well. LIke, against good pitchers?

    Can you explain this more clearly? Sorry if I'm missing something...
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    I'm not sure I'd throw prospects that the team envisions as future every day players/stars into a platoon situation so early in their career. To develop, or potentially develop, the skills needed, they'll need to face left handed and right handed pitching.

    I'd say, potentially at least, the walk-off HR might have been the worst thing that could have happened for Stubbs developmentally. Not saying it is, mind you, just that sometimes young players might see their approach change based on a one-off event such as that.
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    I don't understand what this means. Sounds like, play him when he'll do well. Or, play him when you know the other guys won't do well. LIke, against good pitchers?

    Can you explain this more clearly? Sorry if I'm missing something...
    You said Stubbs does not have platoon splits, which I understand to mean that he has not shown a "kills lefties/overmatched against righties" or vice versa propensity. So, if he performs against either hand, then he can share time with someone who performs better than him against a certain hand. In other words, with what you have described, he could be paired with a lefty or righty killer, or at least someone that does better against either hand than he does.

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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Adequate? Every player?
    Well obviously that's the goal. If you can fill the base of your roster year to year with league average or near league average players, it allows you to spend big bucks on superstars who can make a difference.


    What does this mean in terms of baseball skills? To me, it sounds like theoretical mumbo jumbo.
    Well it is theoretical mumbo jumbo. Everything we're talking about is theoretical. But it means take players who can learn in an enviroment which meshes well with the way your organization is going to teach them.

    I don't see how you know how well a player will progress before he starts playing. Seems like a model for trying to avoid failure as opposed to reaching for possible success.
    And that's the rub, it is avoiding failure to an extent. But which organization do you think is going to be better the one that can produce 5 average players every year(and thus gets average production from 15 people on the roster at basically minimum salary every year) Or the organization that can produce 1 superstar every year. Yeah the superstar helps, but he gets expensive and you still have to fill in the other 23 spots on the roster.


    Some teaching should be organization-wide. No doubt about it. But the devil's in the details. Should all pitchers throw the same pitches? Of course not. Should all hitters have similar mechanics? No. Should all players have the same practice habits? Not really. Can all players think the same way (the way the coaches think)? Of course not. There has to be recognition of a player's particular abilities, strengths and weaknesses, as well as a willingness to take the time to learn how the player thinks. What does he think he can do? What does he want to learn? How does he handle failure? If you don't know these things, you will have a hard time helping the player get better.
    Every player is unique, to an important extent.
    Obviously every system would need some flexibility within the system. But take Princeton's example for instance...
    Every player when promoted goes to the bullpen first, than to the rotation if needed and deserved. There's some flexibility to determine how long someone stays in the bullpen. It also builds flexibility in what the players can do and how they can help the club. But the overall plan stays the same.

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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    You said Stubbs does not have platoon splits, which I understand to mean that he has not shown a "kills lefties/overmatched against righties" or vice versa propensity. So, if he performs against either hand, then he can share time with someone who performs better than him against a certain hand. In other words, with what you have described, he could be paired with a lefty or righty killer, or at least someone that does better against either hand than he does.
    OK, so what do you recommend? Platoon with Dickerson, since Dickerson is the only other CF on the roster? Meaning Stubbs would play only v. lefties...who tend to neutralize the running game, a strength of Stubbs.

    Let him play. Start accruing the sample size, and give him the experience he'll need to come back a better player next year.
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    You said Stubbs does not have platoon splits, which I understand to mean that he has not shown a "kills lefties/overmatched against righties" or vice versa propensity.
    Drew forgot to do the "kills lefties" thing in 2009. he had it in 2008. it'd be a good thing to get back.
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    OK, so what do you recommend? Platoon with Dickerson, since Dickerson is the only other CF on the roster? Meaning Stubbs would play only v. lefties...who tend to neutralize the running game, a strength of Stubbs.

    Let him play. Start accruing the sample size and the experience he'll need to come back a better player next year.
    I'm not stuck on "platoon" as a concept. What I conceptualize is job sharing. I don't think you have to stick it into a "only plays against" to do that successfully. For example, Gomes has had his best year against righties when the book said "can't hit righties, should platoon and play exclusively against lefties." Unfortunately, we saw how spotty seeing a lefty can be, so Dusty has the good fortune of seeing him perform against righties given the opportunity. Now, it could be that its an anomaly, or it could be "given opportunity to see more righties, start to hit righties better."

    BTW, this was something Sparky did very well with Ken Griffey, Sr., just as an example.

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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Drew forgot to do the "kills lefties" thing in 2009. he had it in 2008. it'd be a good thing to get back.
    So, you'd like to see him play only against lefties? Or just against every lefty and some righties? What percentage of games would you like to see him start, roughly?
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    So, you'd like to see him play only against lefties? Or just against every lefty and some righties? What percentage of games would you like to see him start, roughly?
    at this point, I'd give him some lefty starts. if he does well, he can win all of the lefty starts and the occasional righty start. if he hits some righties, he can get more.

    but I would have had Stubbs up all year as Dickerson's CF partner. and the only thing that has changed since is emergence of Heisey-- those two guys should be competing for that role.
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    Re: So how did Stubbs look out there?

    at this point, I'd give him some lefty starts. if he does well, he can win all of the lefty starts and the occasional righty start. if he hits some righties, he can get more.

    but I would have had Stubbs up all year as Dickerson's CF partner. and the only thing that has changed since is emergence of Heisey-- those two guys should be competing for that role.
    Fair enough. Funny thing is, the team is in a similar position with Balentien, who also shows better numbers throughout his career (minors & majors) vs. righties.

    I don't see the need for kid gloves. Stubbs has not been rushed. He's a smart, mature kid. He has not shown a particular weakness vs. righties, and he probably stands a good chance of using his running game much more successfully vs. righties than lefties. I show confidence in him until he shows me there's a reason not to. Try to get full value out of the kid.
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