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Thread: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

  1. #16
    Member JaxRed's Avatar
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    First of all there are no High A affiliates in Arizona. But you can have your new prospect's first exposure to regular season minor league baseball be 1 hour from Cincy, in one of the best facilities, with one of the best run minor league teams, with the best fan base in minor league baseball.

    And you reward the fans and organization in Dayton, and make it possible for your Cincy fans to also see the new guy by driving up the road.

    We just lost Chattanooga after a 20 year run, because the owner felt he was being mistreated by Reds ownership. Part of that was star players not being at their level for a while.

    Since playing a month at Dayton, does not harm, and lots of benefits, that should be part of the working relationship with Dayton. Our top 3 picks will spend at least one month on Dayton roster.

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  3. #17
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxRed View Post
    First of all there are no High A affiliates in Arizona. But you can have your new prospect's first exposure to regular season minor league baseball be 1 hour from Cincy, in one of the best facilities, with one of the best run minor league teams, with the best fan base in minor league baseball.

    And you reward the fans and organization in Dayton, and make it possible for your Cincy fans to also see the new guy by driving up the road.

    We just lost Chattanooga after a 20 year run, because the owner felt he was being mistreated by Reds ownership. Part of that was star players not being at their level for a while.

    Since playing a month at Dayton, does not harm, and lots of benefits, that should be part of the working relationship with Dayton. Our top 3 picks will spend at least one month on Dayton roster.
    Jax, unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. The amount of teams who send their college players, much less polished college players to low A in their first full season is generally.... the Reds. Chris Valaika was the last top 3 round college players taken to leave low A. Drew Stubbs was the 2nd college hitter taken in the draft. He spent an entire year in low A. No other team does that.

    Dayton is great. They do have great facilities, but I doubt they are better than the ones the Reds use for spring training in Sarasota. The fans are great in Dayton. The Reds however shouldn't default from their plans to cater to those fans. Sometimes levels get great players, sometimes they don't. Thats just how the game works. Heck, look at Chattanooga. Frank would have been well served to have the Carolina roster this year full of guys worth talking about. Instead they went with the Dodgers and had just about no one on their roster. It happens every now and again.

  4. #18
    Member JaxRed's Avatar
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    We'll agree to disagree.

  5. #19
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxRed View Post
    We'll agree to disagree.
    I can do that. With that said, if it really had to come down to it.... I wouldn't mind being able to see those guys in person in Dayton next year at all. I just see why the Reds wouldn't start them there. Honestly though, I would probably start Boxberger there unless he shows much improved control in instructional league and spring training next year.

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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    Have to agree with Doug here.
    Go BLUE!!!

  7. #21
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxRed View Post
    We just lost Chattanooga after a 20 year run, because the owner felt he was being mistreated by Reds ownership. Part of that was star players not being at their level for a while.
    Really, though -- it's not like moving from Chattanooga to Zebulon makes a whit of difference from a player-development standpoint. Similarly, if Dayton kicked Cincy to the curb as a parent affiliate, life would go on for both the Reds and Dayton.
    Championships Matter.
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  8. #22
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    What is the Reds' obligation to Dayton?!? And how is Dayton a crown jewel?!?
    How many Low A teams average 8500ish attendance per game?

    For that matter, let's see how the measure up to the other Reds farm teams:
    Louisville: 8690
    Carolina: 3836
    Sarasota: 501
    Dayton: 8541
    Billings: 2900


    Additionally, Dayton currently has better average attendance than any AA team.

    In fact, so far this season, these are the teams with better (or close to the same) average attendance:

    Code:
    team             att.            #g       /g
    Columbus      579,557       61    9500    
    Lehigh Valley 545,465      60    9091    
    Pawtucket    517,637      58    8924    
    Louisville       556,180      64   8690
    Sacramento   567,450     63   9007    
    Round Rock   519,984      59   8813    
    Albuquerque  497,480     59   8431
    Common note on the above? They're all AAA teams.


    Dayton is about as "Reds country" as Cincinnati itself. The Dayton area fans, including those from the northern Miami valley (up to around Sidney at least) tend to be quite loyal Reds fans. It can be tough to get to Reds games regularly from up there, though. The Dragons give those fans the opportunity to maintain and even strengthen their affinity for the Reds and, given a decent flow of prospects through Dayton, give them additional incentive to go to Reds games as they follow those players that were prospects they were fans of in Dayton.

    For a club like the Reds, where fan apathy seems to be the current norm, these fans, en masse, Dayton, particularly with a healthy sprinkling of real prospects, helps keep the Reds relevant with a significant number of fans in the area.

    For reference, the Dayton Metropolitan Area (Montgomery, Miami, Preble, and Greene counties) is ranked 61st in the country by population . Relevant to this discussion regarding Reds and Dragons fans, I think Darke (53K), Shelby (50ishK) and Clark (140ishK) counties should be considered part of this metro area as well.
    Last edited by ochre; 08-20-2009 at 04:23 PM. Reason: formating
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  9. #23
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    That's great for Dayton and their owners. I just don't really think that translates to Dayton being a crown jewel from the Reds' perspective. Nice to have, sure. But I don't think the Reds "owe" Dayton anything.

  10. #24
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    That's great for Dayton and their owners. I just don't really think that translates to Dayton being a crown jewel from the Reds' perspective. Nice to have, sure. But I don't think the Reds "owe" Dayton anything.
    That's just it though. Their owners aren't owed anything by the Reds. They're selling out and have season ticket waiting lists whether there are prospects there, or not. They were selling out when DanO instituted his policies on taking until there is one strike and strict pitch counts on starting pitchers. Those policies may have helped develop some players (or not), but it made for some borderline unwatchable baseball.

    It's the Reds fans in the Dayton area that I'm talking about. The ability to further develop ties with such a large, ready fan base. It's good for the players too. The facilities in Dayton and the crowds there are much more in line with higher levels of the minors. The Dayton community, as evinced by the story on Votto's surrogate Dayton family, embrace these players and are more closely tied to the Reds because of it.
    4009



  11. #25
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    Quote Originally Posted by ochre View Post
    How many Low A teams average 8500ish attendance per game?

    For that matter, let's see how the measure up to the other Reds farm teams:
    Louisville: 8690
    Carolina: 3836
    Sarasota: 501
    Dayton: 8541
    Billings: 2900


    Additionally, Dayton currently has better average attendance than any AA team.

    In fact, so far this season, these are the teams with better (or close to the same) average attendance:

    Code:
    team             att.            #g       /g
    Columbus      579,557       61    9500    
    Lehigh Valley 545,465      60    9091    
    Pawtucket    517,637      58    8924    
    Louisville       556,180      64   8690
    Sacramento   567,450     63   9007    
    Round Rock   519,984      59   8813    
    Albuquerque  497,480     59   8431
    Common note on the above? They're all AAA teams.


    Dayton is about as "Reds country" as Cincinnati itself. The Dayton area fans, including those from the northern Miami valley (up to around Sidney at least) tend to be quite loyal Reds fans. It can be tough to get to Reds games regularly from up there, though. The Dragons give those fans the opportunity to maintain and even strengthen their affinity for the Reds and, given a decent flow of prospects through Dayton, give them additional incentive to go to Reds games as they follow those players that were prospects they were fans of in Dayton.

    For a club like the Reds, where fan apathy seems to be the current norm, these fans, en masse, Dayton, particularly with a healthy sprinkling of real prospects, helps keep the Reds relevant with a significant number of fans in the area.

    For reference, the Dayton Metropolitan Area (Montgomery, Miami, Preble, and Greene counties) is ranked 61st in the country by population . Relevant to this discussion regarding Reds and Dragons fans, I think Darke (53K), Shelby (50ishK) and Clark (140ishK) counties should be considered part of this metro area as well.
    I have not been to a Dragons game since April, mostly because of scheduling, but this post hits it very well. My kids love former Dragons, they are pumped about Drew Stubbs getting called up, and they love Jay Bruce. Going to Dragons games, and knowing one day those players could be Reds, has given them something to root for, in an otherwise dark time to grow up a fan of this team.

    I want what is best for the Reds and in Leake's case I want him in High A or AA right out of the chute. But don't neglect the fans in Dayton today. They could be paying fans at GABP tomorrow.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  12. #26
    Member ochre's Avatar
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Really, though -- it's not like moving from Chattanooga to Zebulon makes a whit of difference from a player-development standpoint. Similarly, if Dayton kicked Cincy to the curb as a parent affiliate, life would go on for both the Reds and Dayton.
    Keep in mind, the Dragons are allowed to play in Dayton only through the grace of the Reds (and their waiving of their territorial rights). A condition of which, being, the Dragons have/had to affiliate with the Reds:
    http://altlaw.org/v1/cases/75595
    Starting in 1996, two separate groups approached Allen and expressed an interest in purchasing and moving a minor league baseball team to Dayton: a group from SSI, including principals Matt Perry ("Perry") and Richard Ehrenreich ("Ehrenreich"), and a group led by husband and wife Tom Dickson ("Dickson") and Sherrie Myers ("Myers"). Each group wanted the Reds to grant it a territorial waiver. Throughout discussions, Allen made clear that the Reds would only grant a waiver to a group if the group (1) reflected the Reds' commitment to achieving minority participation in team ownership; (2) had an achievable and realistic plan to finance a new stadium; and (3) had a team to put in the stadium. The team, moreover, had to become a minor league affiliate of the Reds.
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  13. #27
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    Did anyone else notice Rod Boxberger's stats? 389 K / 504 BB in 700 some innings? 53 wild pitches? Here's hoping the apple falls pretty far from that part of the tree!
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  14. #28
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    Ochre, the relationship between the big league club and the affiliate is a partnership, almost like a marriage in some ways. There is give and take.

    Anyone who thinks that the only factor is "what is best for the player" is a bit naive when it comes to the affiliation process. You need both sides to be happy with the partnership. There are so many bad side effects that arise when one side is not happy that I won't even go into them here. Ask those Carolina players how those 10 hour bus rides are effecting their development now that we are in late-August compared to the short bus rides they had in Chattanooga.

    On top of all of that, there is the fact that the Reds are trying to market to the Dayton area and generate good will there. Katz is not too far off base on this one. Although there will be other factors in play as well next spring when it comes time to assign rosters (ie: cool weather in the Midwest is always an issue with a pitcher that got big money to sign).

    I would hope Katz would admit that the consistently subpar performance of the Dayton team over the last six years is not because of the first round picks. It is more about the overall quality of the drafts or lack thereof.

    Doug, I would have to take issue with you. If you think the Reds are sending players to Dayton that should be in Sarasota, and the Dayton team is still consistently way under .500 every year with the exception of 2007, what does that say about their talent level? Fort Wayne had many, many top level college players this season (Clark, Carroll, Darnell, Dykstra, Tekotte, and the list goes on and on.).

  15. #29
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    I'd agree with Jax on this one there's no good reason not to have each top pick spend a little time in Dayton it's good for the entire organization. A couple of weeks to a month (or more) in Dayton wouldn't hurt any of them and could do so much good in so many ways.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  16. #30
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    Re: Marc Katz: Stories of lol

    The main problem is they have to create rosters and top guys tend to sign at the deadline after a long college baseball season. If they were playing all these guys in low a ball for 2 weeks it puts a pretty big kink into the system. Now if they can play at the end of the year its one thing but a lot of these guys barely play at any level the year they are drafted. I think its kind of a lot to ask that college kids hit Dayton level.


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