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Thread: Toothpick on Stubbs

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    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Toothpick on Stubbs

    "I don't think he's trying too hard," Baker said. "I just think he's taking too much - too many fastballs. It puts you in strikeout situations. Everybody talks about being deep in the count all the time. That's not good for everybody. To go deep in the count, you have to be a pretty good two-strike hitter. In the minors, he was still prone to the strikeouts."

    http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/

    Prone to K, not a good two-strike hitter.

    Only one spot in Toothpick's lineup for such a hitter.

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Right, so we want a great 2 strike hitter and a high OBP for leadoff. That must make Ryan Hanigan a top choice for leadoff...

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by malcontent View Post
    "I don't think he's trying too hard," Baker said. "I just think he's taking too much - too many fastballs. It puts you in strikeout situations. Everybody talks about being deep in the count all the time. That's not good for everybody. To go deep in the count, you have to be a pretty good two-strike hitter. In the minors, he was still prone to the strikeouts."

    http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/

    Prone to K, not a good two-strike hitter.

    Only one spot in Toothpick's lineup for such a hitter.
    I actually agree with Baker on this one. The few AB's I have seen by Stubbs he isn't going up there hacking. I don't think he has the best eye so he needs to go up jumping on the first good pitch he sees, not worrying about working a deep count. That will come as he sees more pitching, adjusts, and becomes a better hitter.

    You can't just go up there as a young unproven player and try to work a deep count, then you just get into holes and strike out 4 times a night.
    Last edited by Griffey012; 08-27-2009 at 04:20 PM.

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    If I could have the option of taking Dustys advice and not taking it I would choose the ... well i think thats pretty obvious.

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day. I think Dusty is right about this, he is taking too many good pitches. BTW, why is it so hard for some people to criticize players they like and to agree with someone they dislike? I think it adds to someone's credibility to care more about what is said and what is done than who said it and who did it.

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    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by kfm View Post
    Even a broken clock is right twice a day. I think Dusty is right about this, he is taking too many good pitches. BTW, why is it so hard for some people to criticize players they like and to agree with someone they dislike? I think it adds to someone's credibility to care more about what is said and what is done than who said it and who did it.
    I posted Toothpick's comments as (to me) they once again show his utter lack of appreciation for OBP.

    He wants Stubbs swinging more and taking less. But his .269/.364/.401 minor league line indicates a lot of his OBP comes from BB. His stats are actually quite similar to Dickerson's minor league stats, whom I prefer in CF.

    Smells to me like he wants Willy back, leading off and hacking away.
    Last edited by malcontent; 08-29-2009 at 03:55 PM.

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by malcontent View Post
    I posted Toothpick's comments as (to me) they once again show his utter lack of appreciation for OBP.

    He wants Stubbs swinging more and taking less. But his .269/.364/.401 minor league line indicates a lot of his OBP comes from BB. His stats are actually quite similar to Dickerson's, who I prefer in CF (at least against RHP).

    Smells to me like he wants Willy back, leading off and hacking away.
    That's one interpretation. I guess he could also have been talking about at bats like Stubbs third at bat last night when he took 3 straight fastball strikes and struck on on three pitches. Going deep into the count and taking fastball strike after fastball strike will not help your obp. Laying off of bad pitches will help him, but I guess there must have been a longer quote when Dusty said something about he needs to swing at more bad pitches.

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by malcontent View Post
    I posted Toothpick's comments as (to me) they once again show his utter lack of appreciation for OBP.

    He wants Stubbs swinging more and taking less. But his .269/.364/.401 minor league line indicates a lot of his OBP comes from BB. His stats are actually quite similar to Dickerson's, who I prefer in CF (at least against RHP).

    Smells to me like he wants Willy back, leading off and hacking away.
    of course he wants willy back, its his guy. dusty needs to be fired immediately

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic View Post
    of course he wants willy back, its his guy. dusty needs to be fired immediately
    I don't doubt that he wants Wily back, while all guys have weaknesses that cause them to lose their rational thought Dusty is the only one I know of whose weaknesses is bad fielding fast CF who cant hit a lick or take a walk to save their lives. I was just pointing out that he is right in his comments about Stubbs at this moment. He is taking too many good pitches. If he starts to hit some of those pitches, pitchers will not start so many at bats against him 0-2. Like I said before even a broken clock . . . By not commenting on the actual statement does this mean that you do not think he is taking too many good pitches?

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic View Post
    of course he wants willy back, its his guy. dusty needs to be fired immediately
    Agreed.

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by kfm View Post
    That's one interpretation. I guess he could also have been talking about at bats like Stubbs third at bat last night when he took 3 straight fastball strikes and struck on on three pitches. Going deep into the count and taking fastball strike after fastball strike will not help your obp. Laying off of bad pitches will help him, but I guess there must have been a longer quote when Dusty said something about he needs to swing at more bad pitches.
    No longer quote that I'm aware of.

    Maybe Stubbs has had a couple AB, including the one last night, that we would all agree were questionable.

    It's Toothpick's eternally poor excuse for logic that irritates me to no end. Aggressiveness/hacking is good. OBP isn't an afterthought; it never enters into the equation. And, as a corollary, you'll need to hit your hackers 1/2, lest they not see enough pitches to hack at.

    Taveras doesn't go deep in the count, either. He may just be one of those guys that Toothpick is referring to, that that just isn't "good for". How has that approach worked out so far? Do we want a second Willy Taveras if Toothpick can mold us one?
    Last edited by malcontent; 08-29-2009 at 04:10 PM.

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by malcontent View Post
    No longer quote that I'm aware of.

    Maybe Stubbs has had a couple AB, including the one last night, that we would all agree were questionable.

    It's Toothpick's eternally poor excuse for logic that irritates me to no end. Aggressiveness/hacking is good. OBP isn't an afterthought; it never enters into the equation. And, as a corollary, you'll need to hit your hackers 1/2, lest they not see enough pitches to hack at.

    Taveras doesn't go deep in the count, either. He may just be one of those guys that Toothpick is referring to, that that just isn't "good for". How has that approach worked out so far? Do we want a second Willy Taveras if Toothpick can mold us one?
    Ok, I am not sure how we got off on this tangent. This was about a player who was hitting under .200 at the time and seemed to be taking a lot of good pitches to hit and really struggling. By arguing that he needs to stop taking strike after strike while he is hitting under .200 is not the same as arguing that I want him to be Wily Tavares. I thought I was just agreeing that he is taking a lot of good pitches and putting himself in a lot of bad counts. Maybe you should check out a guys average when he starts a count 0-2. Can we please stick to the actual discussion.

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    I don't ever want to see Taveras in a Reds uniform again...

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by kfm View Post
    Ok, I am not sure how we got off on this tangent. This was about a player who was hitting under .200 at the time and seemed to be taking a lot of good pitches to hit and really struggling. By arguing that he needs to stop taking strike after strike while he is hitting under .200 is not the same as arguing that I want him to be Wily Tavares. I thought I was just agreeing that he is taking a lot of good pitches and putting himself in a lot of bad counts. Maybe you should check out a guys average when he starts a count 0-2. Can we please stick to the actual discussion.
    I hear you, kfm.

    Me, I can't shake the vibe. For me, even when T'Pick appears to be right, he's wrong.
    Last edited by malcontent; 08-29-2009 at 07:38 PM.

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    Re: Toothpick on Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by malcontent View Post
    I hear you, kfm.

    Me, I can't shake the vibe. For me, even when T'Pick appears to be right, he's wrong.
    Don't sweat it man, I kept thinking if one of us on this board had made that observation their would have been very wide acceptance but I figured this was more about Dusty than what was actually said. I know it is tough, but I have a lot of respect for people who can crticize someone they like and agree with someone they dislike. I think it really gives credence to their objectivity. Like I said, broken clock.


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