Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 62 123451151 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 917

Thread: Losing Stewart really hurts...

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    All around
    Posts
    7,585

    Losing Stewart really hurts...

    If you didn't read this, it's from Tyler Hissey from "Around The Majors":

    July 31, 2009

    Reds Whiff In Scott Rolen Trade
    Discuss

    By Tyler Hissey
    Recommended (0) | Share
    Close X
    Share
    Twackle
    Yardbarker
    BallHype
    Facebook
    Digg




    I like Scott Rolen as a player. I really do.

    Rolen is an outstanding defensive third baseman, even at age 34, and has rebounded a great deal as a hitter after putting his injury issues behind him. He has indeed produced a real nice season so far for the Toronto Blue Jays in 2009, batting .320/.370/.476 with a 123 OPS+. While he is not quite the same fielder that he was during his prime, he is still quite good on the other end of the ball as well; he has put up a healthy 4.8 UZR and 7.9. UZR/150. When factoring in batting, fielding and positional considerations, he has produced an outstanding 3.0 Wins Above Replacement (WAR), which ranks seventh in the game among qualifying major league third baseman.

    Through the past decade, Rolen has battled some ups and downs, from fighting with Tony LaRussa to getting sidetracked with consistent injuries. He has remained a valuable defensive asset and gotten through the adversity, though, and is still a tremendously valuable player for a guy his age. I have always liked him and thought he got a bad rap in Philadelphia and St. Louis.

    With that said, I dislike the trade that sent Rolen to the Cincinnati Reds as much as I like him as a player. It just does not make sense to me.

    As I wrote last week, the Reds have no chance of contending. Instead of moving some contracts to free up some payroll, though, the club sent third baseman Edwin Encarnacion, reliever Josh Roenicke and top pitching prospect Zach Stewart to the Blue Jays in exchange for the All-Star third sacker.

    While the club wisely did not part ways with slugging first base prospect Yonder Alonso, I still just do not get it. Assuming that Cincinnati made the trade to compete in 2010, it is still questionable considering the steep price in prospects and payroll that were forced to incur.

    True, Rolen represents a major defensive upgrade over Encarnacion, who has been worth -36.1 runs below an average third baseman with his glove during his career. This will help in the short term and for 2010, when the Reds could perhaps make a realistic run in the National League Central. Also, moving to Great American Ball Park should help his power output; his Isolated Power (IsoP) is down to .157, well below his .216 career average, and he has hit just eight home runs.

    Assuming that Rolen stays healthy--and given his track record, that is a pretty big if, increasing the risk--he will likely net at least two-win upgrade over Encarnacion with his defensive value alone. He is still going to be 35, though, and is due to make $11-M in base salary with a $4-M bonus in '10, according to Cot's Baseball Contracts. While he will earn his paycheck in terms of WAR if he puts up another 3.5-win campaign, the difference between his salary and production will be fairly slim. The opportunity of cost of where the team could have allocated that payroll to build for the future, as a result, is fairly high.

    Plus, a lot of Rolen's offensive value in '09 is the result of his .320 batting average. His walk rate is down to 7.1%, down from a 11.2% career average. However, the BA is misleading and has been aided by an unsustainable .347 batting average on balls in play (BABIP); his career BABIP is .314. Again, I think that Rolen is a great, great player, but, for where Cincinnati finds itself as an organization, the move does not make a whole lot of sense.

    The Blue Jays botched the Roy Halladay situation, from where I am standing, wasting an opportunity to cash in on their asset with his value at its peak. However, I like what Toronto, who said that Rolen asked to be moved for "personal reasons," did here. General manager J.P. Riccardi picked up two solid minor league pieces and an all-hit, no-field infielder who has value going forward in Encarnacion

    I wrote about Encarnacion last week:

    Encarnacion's value is at a real low point. He's getting up there in years, at 26, and has still yet to live up the hype that has surrounded him for nearly a decade. He missed much of the first few months due to injury and has really struggled when he has been on the field. Despite a strong return, he's currently batting only .209/.341/.365 with an 85 OPS+. While he's always been a plus bat and his numbers should improve (ZiPS projects him to post an .808 OPS the rest of the season), though, his value also suffers because of his well below-average defense at the hot corner. Indeed, he has been worth -35.4 runs below an average third baseman during his career and has produced a -5.4 UZR and stunningly terrible -25.0 UZR/150 this year. All factors considered, he has produced -0.1 WAR. He still has talent and potential, especially if his bat improves and he moves out of the infield, but he's not going to bring back any solid chips, profiling as a 2.0-win player at best.

    It will be interesting to see if Encarnacion will be moved to the outfield in Toronto, something that has been speculated in Cincinnati. Ricciardi has built several teams founded on strong defenses, especially in the infield, to support a ground-ball pitching staff. Adding the rangeless butcher will hurt there, but his bat will be a welcome addition to the lineup despite his poor performance to date.

    According to Reds minor league expert Doug Gray, the one prospect who it really hurts to lose as far as Cincy is concerned is Stewart. Gray, who ranked him as the eighth-best prospect in the organization in the offseason, said that he would not trade the 22-year-old right-hander for Rolen straight up.

    Stewart has shot up three levels already, excelling at each stop along the way from High-A Sarasota to Triple-A Louisville. He began the spring in the Florida State League, where he posted a 2.13 ERA, 2.77 FIP and rates of 6.80 K/9, 1.70 BB/9 and 0.21 HR/9 in 37.0 innings pitched over seven starts. The Reds then promoted him to Double-A Chattanooga, and he continued to shine. He improved his strikeout rate (7.54 K/9) while registering a 1.46 ERA and 2.77 FIP in 37.0 innings pitched over seven starts. Cincinnati moved him to the bullpen to limit his innings upon a promotion to the International League. Although he was a reliever during an inconsistent career at Texas Tech, however, his future is clearly a starter. Like any other pitcher, his stuff plays up in the late innings and he was effective in that role in nine appearances for the Bats, striking out 16 in 12.1 innings pitched.

    Along with the impressive numbers, the scouting reports on Stewart are excellent as well. He has good command over a heavy, sinking fastball that sits in the 92-to-96 MPH range. The pitch is a real worm burner, helping him to generate a ton of ground ball outs. He also mixes in a plus slider, which he can consistently locate, and an average-but-improving change-up.

    The kid is real good. Indeed, according to Gray, he would be the number two prospect in the Cincinnati farm system today had he not switched organizations. Giving up that many years of his services will sting down the road.

    To top it off, Roenicke is a nice relief asset as well. Relievers are the easiest position to find cheap production--take a failed starting prospect, stick him in the bullpen--and have a minimal upside, which hurts his prospect status for that reason. However, the results are what you want to see. He misses a ton of bats using a big mid-90s fastball (avg. velocity 94.6 MPH in the majors), low-80s slider and upper-80s cutter. His minor league K rates are excellent, and, while he has had a difficult time on a control and command front in the past, he is a nice-looking, cheap relief asset who was just an added bonus in a great pick-up for Toronto.

    It will be nice to see Rolen in a Cincy uniform, and he gets to reunite with general manager Walt Jocketty. The trade is nearly as puzzling as batting Corey Patterson leadoff, though, and could come back to haunt the club when Stewart is mowing down hitters in the majors well into the next decade.

    Color me confused.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    10,258

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    TINSTAAPP

    Remember that.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  4. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    All around
    Posts
    7,585

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    TINSTAAPP

    Remember that.
    Remember this:

    OTH3B

  5. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    10,258

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    OTH3B
    Tell me what it means?
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  6. #5
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    portland, oregon
    Posts
    14,753

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    No offense, but an article that uses Dougdirt's opinion to justify it's conclusions really doesn't add much to the conversation, at least here at RZ where Doug's opinion is already well documented.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  7. #6
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,918

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    No offense, but an article that uses Dougdirt's opinion to justify it's conclusions really doesn't add much to the conversation, at least here at RZ where Doug's opinion is already well documented.
    I don't think my opinion has much to do with the conclusion that Tyler reached. His conclusion was that while Scott Rolen is a good player, he is an old, oft injured player that a team is taking on who has 0 shot at contending in 2009 but gave up part of its future to acquire him in 2009.

  8. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    All around
    Posts
    7,585

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Tell me what it means?
    Over-The-Hill 3rd-Baseman.

  9. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    10,258

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    Over-The-Hill 3rd-Baseman.
    Have you watched Rolen play for the Reds? Did you see the numbers he came with from Toronto? He may be past his prime, but I'd say he's far from over the hill. Over the hill is Griffey in his last couple years here.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  10. #9
    High five! nate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Irvine, CA
    Posts
    6,976

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Have you watched Rolen play for the Reds? Did you see the numbers he came with from Toronto? He may be past his prime, but I'd say he's far from over the hill. Over the hill is Griffey in his last couple years here.
    If we put Rolen and EE in identical "Gapper" suits so as to disguise their identity and watched them play 3b, which one would you think looks "over the hill?"

    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  11. #10
    Member GOYA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    5,143

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    In Gapper suits? Both of them.

  12. #11
    High five! nate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Irvine, CA
    Posts
    6,976

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    Quote Originally Posted by GOYA View Post
    In Gapper suits? Both of them.
    Hello? Please suspend disbelief enough to make my point funny and poignant!

    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  13. #12
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,549

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    Did Tyler throw a Hissey fit?
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  14. #13
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    11,491

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    Encarnacion, combined with his salary and declining bat speed, has negative value. In fact, it's been reported that the Blue Jays don't want him and are trying to find someone to take him. As for Roenicke, I think there's a very good chance that he won't ever amount to even an average middle reliever. As for Stewart, his mechanics are somewhat questionable (imo), and he has pitched just 133 innings as a professional. When he goes against more patient hitters, he tends to struggle with his control, and it's more likely than not that we will never see him become an above-average starter at the Major League level, let alone a top-of-the-rotation starter.

    Regarding Rolen's $4mm bonus, the Cardinals are going to be the ones paying for it, and it's been speculated that the Blue Jays are going to be paying for a large portion of Rolen's salary next season. I've even heard from one source that the Blue Jays may pay as much as the difference between EE's and Rolen's salaries. I just don't think bringing up the money side of it helps Hissy's argument.

    All in all, I hate to give up prospects, but the upgrade from EE to Rolen is huge as long as Rolen's healthy, and I think it will make a big difference in the Reds competitive for 2010. If 2010 turns out to be anything like 2009, though, I'll concede that the trade was a very bad idea.

  15. #14
    Member VR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Vancouver, Wa
    Posts
    8,591

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    How Zach doing since the trade?

    edit, found it.

    8.1 IP
    14 hits
    4 bb
    6 k
    5.40 earnie
    Last edited by VR; 09-02-2009 at 12:27 AM.
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand

  16. #15
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    34,844

    Re: Losing Stewart really hurts...

    Quote Originally Posted by VR View Post
    How Zach doing since the trade?
    He had allowed 1 ER through 7.2 innings before getting roughed up for four runs in 0.2 innings last night. His ERA for the season is still below 2.00 and his GO/FO ratio is still above 2.0.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25