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Thread: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

  1. #16
    Someday Never Comes mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I haven't been watching, but I did see he let him go 115 pitches to do. Homer's a big boy, so I won't get too worked up about it, but here are his pitch counts since Aug 23:

    8/23: 114
    8/28: 115
    9/2: 116
    9/7: 117
    9/13: 115

    Really Dusty? In a lost season you need to push him 115 pitches every single time he takes the mound? It was one thing to do this to Mark Prior and Kerry Wood when you were chasing a pennant, but this team is not in the race...
    Gotta get 6 out of him???? Chasing that quality start.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  3. #17
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Sorry, I don't buy that. Fans have their heads stuck on this 100 imaginary pitch count limit. Yes, it's a nice round number, but it's garbage. Every pitcher is different and Homer can EASILY go 120 each outing. It's HOW he goes 120 that matters. If he's throwing free and easy (like he has been lately) then 120 is no big deal at all. That's FAR from pushing him IMO.

    There are times I wish they'd never even invented using pitch counts at all.

  4. #18
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Sorry, I don't buy that. Fans have their heads stuck on this 100 imaginary pitch count limit. Yes, it's a nice round number, but it's garbage. Every pitcher is different and Homer can EASILY go 120 each outing. It's HOW he goes 120 that matters. If he's throwing free and easy (like he has been lately) then 120 is no big deal at all. That's FAR from pushing him IMO.

    There are times I wish they'd never even invented using pitch counts at all.
    What evidence is there that its no big deal for Homer to do it?

  5. #19
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Sorry, I don't buy that. Fans have their heads stuck on this 100 imaginary pitch count limit. Yes, it's a nice round number, but it's garbage. Every pitcher is different and Homer can EASILY go 120 each outing. It's HOW he goes 120 that matters. If he's throwing free and easy (like he has been lately) then 120 is no big deal at all. That's FAR from pushing him IMO.

    There are times I wish they'd never even invented using pitch counts at all.
    Was he throwing "free and easy" today?

    How do we know it's "no big deal" for him to do it?
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  6. #20
    Someday Never Comes mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Sorry, I don't buy that. Fans have their heads stuck on this 100 imaginary pitch count limit. Yes, it's a nice round number, but it's garbage. Every pitcher is different and Homer can EASILY go 120 each outing. It's HOW he goes 120 that matters. If he's throwing free and easy (like he has been lately) then 120 is no big deal at all. That's FAR from pushing him IMO.

    There are times I wish they'd never even invented using pitch counts at all.
    23 YO pitcher who has logged 30 more innings than he has ever thrown in a season. Rosters are expanded and there are tons of guys available. Its not the point in the season to be stepping on the gas. Its the point where they should be backing off. I'd shut him down personally.

    Keeping Homer healthy is more inportant than some arbitrary lesson about getting him over the hump or whatever. This team has lost a ton of young pitching to injuries this year, including its number one starter on the big league club. Homer is probably the key to next year's rotation. I'd be cautious and keep him healthy. It may be ok to push these guys, no one really knows, but why take the chance with a guy who is in such uncharted territory?
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

  7. #21
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    What evidence is there that its no big deal for Homer to do it?
    None. And what evidence is there that it IS a big deal if he does it? None again. You look at his mechanics as he's pitching. You look at how he's handling things each inning. In other words, you use your best judgement and the judgement of your catcher and of the pitcher himself. Not some mystical number of 100 like it's a one size fits all baseball cap.

    I'm all for erring on the side of caution. But at what point is being TOO cautious a bad thing? I'm not suggesting that we physically push all our pitchers to the breaking point. Just that we use common sense instead of some arbitrary number.
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 09-13-2009 at 05:34 PM.

  8. #22
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Agree with mth. If they're going to keep throwing Homer the rest of the season, he should be on a rigidly enforced 100 pitch count. It's obvious there is no other way to control Dusty.

  9. #23
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Why 100? Why not 95? Why not 88? Why not 174?

    Who is this baseball knowitall who decided it's got to be 100?

    Okay, I'll drop it now. Sorry, it's just one of those things that irritates the heck out of me.

  10. #24
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Sorry, I don't buy that. Fans have their heads stuck on this 100 imaginary pitch count limit. Yes, it's a nice round number, but it's garbage. Every pitcher is different and Homer can EASILY go 120 each outing. It's HOW he goes 120 that matters. If he's throwing free and easy (like he has been lately) then 120 is no big deal at all. That's FAR from pushing him IMO.

    There are times I wish they'd never even invented using pitch counts at all.
    Don't get me wrong; I'm not hung up on the 100 number. Some guys tire and start to lose it at 80, others can go to 120, as you say. And even then, it depends on the day. The assessment should be one based on past experience, injury history, and observation of the pitcher during that day. Is he losing velocity or control? Is he taking extra time? I'm not pretending to suggest there's a magic number. However, history has shown us that when get up above 110 on a regular basis, most pitchers start to get tired and lose effectiveness. I have no problem with Dusty pushing Homer in to that 110+ range on occasion to explore how he handles it. I just don't like to see it every time out, especially on a day when he clearly didn't have his best stuff.

    My worry is not that I think Dusty is in the process of breaking Homer or anything. It's that Dusty is pushing Homer to his limit every time out. It's clearly not a science in terms of how long a pitcher can safely pitch. But every time you take a pitcher to his limit, you risk it being that time when you actually let him go a few pitches too far, where he loses his mechanics and fights through it anyways and starts to do damage to himself. I just think there's more to lose than to gain by pushing Homer this much every time out.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 09-13-2009 at 05:43 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  11. #25
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Why 100? Why not 95? Why not 88? Why not 174?

    Who is this baseball knowitall who decided it's got to be 100?

    Okay, I'll drop it now. Sorry, it's just one of those things that irritates the heck out of me.
    Why not "he's thrown more innings than he's ever thrown before so why throw 'a bunch' of pitches when the team has an expanded roster?"
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  12. #26
    Someday Never Comes mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Don't get me wrong; I'm not hung up on the 100 number. Some guys tire and start to lose it at 80, others can go to 120, as you say. And even then, it depends on the day. The assessment should be one based on past experience, injury history, and observation of the pitcher during that day. Is he losing velocity or control? Is he taking extra time? I'm not pretending to suggest there's a magic number. However, history has shown us that when get up above 110 on a regular basis, most pitchers start to get tired and lose effectiveness. I have no problem with Dusty pushing Homer in to that 110+ range on occasion to explore how he handles it. I just don't like to see it every time out, especially on a day when he clearly didn't have his best stuff.

    My worry is not that I think Dusty is in the process of breaking Homer or anything. It's that Dusty is pushing Homer to his limit every time out. It's clearly not a science in terms of how long a pitcher can safely pitch. But every time you take a pitcher to his limit, you risk it being that time when you actually let him go a few pitches too far, where he loses his mechanics and fights through it anyways and starts to do damage to himself. I just think there's more to lose than to gain by pushing Homer this much every time out.
    Exactly.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

  13. #27
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    I did watch the game... yes I am that pathetic... and I thought that it would have been smart to take Bailey out after the 5th. He wasn't struggling, he was still throwing easily and with confidence, but that's why I thought it would have been smart.

    He was losing, he just got out of a tough jam with a K and GO, why push him? Let him enjoy another solid start and build his confidence by resting him. It's not like the Reds were about to score 4 runs the next half inning and get him a win.

    Anyway, that was my take when I was watching it unfold.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  14. #28
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    I'm no longer worried about his confidence at all. The kid's whole bearing on the mound seems to me very different than early in the year. He now knows he can get hitters out, especially if umpires will actually call the strike zone. I'm worried about his arm. There's nothing magical about the number 100 obviously; make it 95 or 103. But I see no purpose in letting Dusty push him out to 120 every time out.

  15. #29
    Find out who we are time RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: 9/13/09 Reds vs Cubs

    I was at the game. First row, right behind the catcher.

    Schwing!!!!
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