Turn Off Ads?

View Poll Results: What do you want to see from Stubbs going forward?

Voters
89. You may not vote on this poll
  • His current .760 OPS is just fine

    22 24.72%
  • Would like to see a higher OBP, even at expense of some SLG

    51 57.30%
  • Would like to see the SLG continue to climb

    2 2.25%
  • Not satisfied with a .760 OPS

    4 4.49%
  • Slightly lower than .760 would still be justifed by defense

    10 11.24%
Page 22 of 32 FirstFirst ... 12181920212223242526 ... LastLast
Results 316 to 330 of 470

Thread: Drew Stubbs

  1. #316
    Member Cedric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Monroe
    Posts
    6,398

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    It's just about the competition for said poster. From Phillips to Stubbs it becomes personal because HE won't be budged. It's degrade at all costs.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #317
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I've never seen such weak attempts to degrade Stubbs.

    Obviously these games have meaning to him. He's playing for a spot next season, and trying to establish himself as a major league player.

    As usual, there are reasons not to like Stubbs. You don't need to go out of your way to make arguments that have nothing to do with valuing the player.

    I also find it odd that you see no reason to believe that his power can continue at some reasonable pace, but at the same time, make no concession that his OBP numbers could improve when he showed that ability up and down the minors.
    My last few comments have nothing to do about Stubbs at all. I'm commenting on selfishness when it comes to individual achievement, like players triggering contract bonuses, padding stats for arbitration, or finishing up the last year of a contract before they venture into free agency.

    None of those have anything to do with Drew Stubbs at all.

    As for the power, Stubbs gave us no reason to believe he has power based on his minor league stats, and the only time he's displayed power he was swinging an aluminum bat.

    Some have said he tweaked his swing, and if so, let's see what it can do over the course of a full season, rather than the last month of a season when he's the de facto starting CF.

    I really wanna see who starts in CF once Dickerson and Taveras come off the DL, though.

  4. #318
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    Posts
    5,914

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    My last few comments have nothing to do about Stubbs at all. I'm commenting on selfishness when it comes to individual achievement, like players triggering contract bonuses, padding stats for arbitration, or finishing up the last year of a contract before they venture into free agency.

    None of those have anything to do with Drew Stubbs at all.
    Well maybe not that particular post. But the root of your post began in a prior post where you degraded everything that Stubbs has done to date in the major leagues because as you say, the games are now meaningless.

    Of course, that standard never applied to the likes of Chris Denorfia. But when Stubbs does something right, there's always a myriad of reasons to simply sweep it under the rug. It's actually quite laughable at this point the types of arguments that are being used against Stubbs.

    His dicey minor league track record should be enough to use against Stubbs. We don't need to make up fake reasons to use against the guy. Your right to be skeptical that his numbers to date are going to be difficult to repeat. At the same time, your wrong to continuously ignore them, and set ridiculous qualifications on his numbers to pretend they aren't worth their fair value.

  5. #319
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,297

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    As for the power, Stubbs gave us no reason to believe he has power based on his minor league stats, and the only time he's displayed power he was swinging an aluminum bat.
    Chris Dickerson hit 6 HRs in 122 PAs during his cup of coffee last year. He has hit 2 in 297 PAs this year.

    I'm not getting all giddy about Stubbs' "power" just yet. Time will tell once the pitchers in the majors get the book on him.

  6. #320
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,447

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    As for the power, Stubbs gave us no reason to believe he has power based on his minor league stats, and the only time he's displayed power he was swinging an aluminum bat.
    Except that's not correct at all. Scouts told us the power was there, he just wasn't using it correctly. Some other talent evaluators backed up that statement. There was reason to believe he had power, but you refused to look at anything outside of numbers.

  7. #321
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    Well maybe not that particular post. But the root of your post began in a prior post where you degraded everything that Stubbs has done to date in the major leagues because as you say, the games are now meaningless.

    Of course, that standard never applied to the likes of Chris Denorfia. But when Stubbs does something right, there's always a myriad of reasons to simply sweep it under the rug. It's actually quite laughable at this point the types of arguments that are being used against Stubbs.

    His dicey minor league track record should be enough to use against Stubbs. We don't need to make up fake reasons to use against the guy. Your right to be skeptical that his numbers to date are going to be difficult to repeat. At the same time, your wrong to continuously ignore them, and set ridiculous qualifications on his numbers to pretend they aren't worth their fair value.
    I was wrong about Chris Denorfia to some extent.

    He had great minor league numbers, came up for his cup of coffee after The Trade, got sent back down, came back up end of season, put up solid numbers and then hurt himself in ST next year and that was it for Denorfia.

    Once he went to the A's, he's flat out sucked something awful.

    I'm not wrong about Stubbs yet. I hope I am wrong, b/c that'll mean that he wasn't a bust, and the Reds didn't waste a 1st Round Draft pick.

    Apparently Stubbs' dicey minor league record is now a moot point b/c he's mashing HRs at the MLB level, while struggling to find 1B. I guess that's the happy ending to this chapter of the story?

  8. #322
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Except that's not correct at all. Scouts told us the power was there, he just wasn't using it correctly. Some other talent evaluators backed up that statement. There was reason to believe he had power, but you refused to look at anything outside of numbers.
    Blind faith?

    Stubbs showed NO power in 1800 minor league PAs, right? The numbers showed us that.

    And then he's promoted to the MLB level and a switch is flicked and he's hitting HRs?

    Something just doesn't add up.

  9. #323
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    Posts
    5,914

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    [QUOTE=Highlifeman21;1974104]
    I was wrong about Chris Denorfia to some extent.

    He had great minor league numbers, came up for his cup of coffee after The Trade, got sent back down, came back up end of season, put up solid numbers and then hurt himself in ST next year and that was it for Denorfia.

    Once he went to the A's, he's flat out sucked something awful.
    That obviously wasn't even the point. Denorfia got a free pass for years, even though he never played as good as Stubbs, even over a similar small sample size that Stubbs had. The only modicum of success that Deno ever really had was late in the season, much like Stubbs. The ridiculous qualifications asserted on Stubbs were never applied to Deno. Fair is fair, and I think their was obvious favouritism, and a complete lack of objectivity on the subject.

    I'm not wrong about Stubbs yet. I hope I am wrong, b/c that'll mean that he wasn't a bust, and the Reds didn't waste a 1st Round Draft pick.
    Well sure you have. You've led people to believe that he would get eaten alive in the high minors and never even sniff the majors. He was supposed to be recylced on to another team long ago. He's not, by that virtue, you've already miscalculated on Stubbs quite badly. You could still ultimately be right on Stubbs, but to act like you've been spot on with Stubbs is to an extent, very wrong.

    Apparently Stubbs' dicey minor league record is now a moot point b/c he's mashing HRs at the MLB level, while struggling to find 1B. I guess that's the happy ending to this chapter of the story?
    And this is obviously a strawman, and not even a good one. That is not my argument. Nor is it anywhere close to the stance that I have represented.

    I find that the debates around here start running into walls when posters take such hardlined positions, and never even consider budging due to preconceived notions. As more facts become available, you have to be able to examine them objectively, and to an extent, limit the preconceived notions.

    What I'm trying to say is, Stubbs has a chance to succeed. He's not a bust. Your not a bust until you actually bust. He may have taken a mediocre road to get to the majors, but the guy is outperforming expectations, and as a result, there's none of this "Stubbs doesn't have a chance" nonsense. He has enough to skills and ability, that when combined with a minor league track record that is heavily exaggerated to be poor, and impressive major league play, I don't think it's fair to continue to evaluate the player as 100% hopeless. That's really the only point I'm trying to rebut here. Your more than welcome to not be optmistic about his future. There is ample evidence to support that side of things.

    But this debate goes nowhere if the hardlined approach of preconceived notions is going to be the end all focal point of the discussion. When that happens, you just see any excuse used to degrade the player.

  10. #324
    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Colorado's eastern plains
    Posts
    11,232

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Just saw this on Sheldon's blog. Interesting.

    Incidentally since Stubbs joined the Reds on Aug. 19 (notice the date), he leads the Reds in homers, total bases (65), steals and runs scored (20). His 36 hits are second to Brandon Phillips, who has 41.

  11. #325
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    26,672

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    I see the best defensive CF we've had since Cameron or Davis.

    I see a bat that has potential and isn't as long as it was early in AAA this season.

    I see a guy that earned his shot and is making the most of it. He's the best option we have as well, so I think he's gotta stick.
    Well said. What else, at this point, do we have to lose? What are our alternatives at this stage? He's earned it. Give him his shot.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  12. #326
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    15,567

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post
    Just saw this on Sheldon's blog. Interesting.
    That is interesting. Dusty better not bench in favor of Willy

  13. #327
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,447

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Blind faith?
    No, its not blind faith. There is a lot to be said about watching a player rather than simply just looking at his stats.

    Stubbs showed NO power in 1800 minor league PAs, right? The numbers showed us that.
    I disagree with that. I saw Stubbs hit some absolute bombs for HR's in the minors. While he didn't tap into it much, he certainly had the power.

    And then he's promoted to the MLB level and a switch is flicked and he's hitting HRs?

    Something just doesn't add up.
    Mechanics changed and now the power that he showed at times in the minors is showing up with a bit ore frequency. Its like the pitcher who threw 95 in college, but then threw 89-92 in the minors for the most part. Then found the right coach to make a small switch mechanically and found that 95 heater again. It adds up if you simply look past his numbers and pay attention to scouting reports and actual tools.

  14. #328
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    18,952

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Mechanics changed and now the power that he showed at times in the minors is showing up with a bit ore frequency. Its like the pitcher who threw 95 in college, but then threw 89-92 in the minors for the most part. Then found the right coach to make a small switch mechanically and found that 95 heater again. It adds up if you simply look past his numbers and pay attention to scouting reports and actual tools.
    How often does that happen?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #329
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    15,567

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    How often does that happen?
    It happened with Homer Bailey. Last year he was throwing 92-93 and this year he's at 97-98. A pitching coach from Texas helped him out

  16. #330
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Atlanta, Ga.
    Posts
    10,568

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Honestly, the crux of the debate comes down to this:

    1. Has Drew Stubbs exhibited power prior to this point?
    2. Does Drew Stubbs possess the ability to hit for power beyond this point?

    Based on minor leaguestats prior to reaching the majors, the answer to No. 1 is clearly "No." Where the difference lies, though, is that some people claim No. 1 is not mutually exclusive from the answer to No. 2 because minor league stats don't account for everything. Unfortunately there are two very distinct issues being debated, but the answers to each are not mutually exclusive from one another.

    And, in a bit of a throwback argument, the rationale comes down to stats vs. scouting. Can scouts better predict what stats cannot? Or at least fill the gaps into what stats cannot?

    The stats so far in the majors are corroborating the Scouts for No. 2, but obviously it's too early to make definitive judgments one way or another.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25