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View Poll Results: What do you want to see from Stubbs going forward?

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  • His current .760 OPS is just fine

    22 24.72%
  • Would like to see a higher OBP, even at expense of some SLG

    51 57.30%
  • Would like to see the SLG continue to climb

    2 2.25%
  • Not satisfied with a .760 OPS

    4 4.49%
  • Slightly lower than .760 would still be justifed by defense

    10 11.24%
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Thread: Drew Stubbs

  1. #301
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    September might be a little easier because of roster expansion but I tend to think it's all meaningful.
    When winning one more game means going to the playoffs straight up or being forced to play a one game playoff, then games are meaningful throughout the season. Ask anyone from the 1999 team; just one stinking game, period. Ultimately, they're all meaningful until you've clinched a spot.
    “In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either.” - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"

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  3. #302
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    When winning one more game means going to the playoffs straight up or being forced to play a one game playoff, then games are meaningful throughout the season. Ask anyone from the 1999 team; just one stinking game, period. Ultimately, they're all meaningful until you've clinched a spot.
    From a talent evaluation standpoint however, they're all pretty much the same.

    The real enemy of a September call up is sample size.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #303
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    To who?
    To teams in contention? Hell, most teams know by end of June if they're in it or not, and certainly by the 7/31 trading deadline

    I think these games are pretty damn important to teams like Florida, Los Angeles, Colorado, etc. -- the Reds might be counting the days until they can kick back and fire up the NFL Sunday Ticket, but a lot of the teams they're playing are still fighting for wildcard spots and division crowns.

    Even if the teams are out of it, there are guys who are trying to make their case for roster spots next year, free agent contracts, etc.

    These games all "matter" to someone -- it's just a question of degree.
    Sure, teams that are still in contention now are playing meaningful baseball, but I don't buy it that teams like the Reds really take pleasure in playing spoiler against the teams in contention.

    I guess I'm just amused that in a team game, there's individual/personal meaning for games this time of year when it has little meaning (other than draft position) to the team.

  5. #304
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    To teams in contention? Hell, most teams know by end of June if they're in it or not, and certainly by the 7/31 trading deadline



    Sure, teams that are still in contention now are playing meaningful baseball, but I don't buy it that teams like the Reds really take pleasure in playing spoiler against the teams in contention.

    I guess I'm just amused that in a team game, there's individual/personal meaning for games this time of year when it has little meaning (other than draft position) to the team.
    There is always meaning.

    Arbitration-eligible players are trying to boost stats.
    Players with award and performance bonuses want to boost salary.
    Rookies and September call-ups want to boost their position for next season.

    And then you have the teams trying for the post season.

    Fastballs don't get any slower. Curves don't get any straighter. Line drives don't fall any more often. The fact that it's September does not change the accomplishments. Individuals still are trying, even if for selfish reasons.

    The fact it's September doesn't diminish the ability to hit a baseball or make it any easier to do so.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  6. #305
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    There is always meaning.

    Arbitration-eligible players are trying to boost stats.
    Players with award and performance bonuses want to boost salary.
    Rookies and September call-ups want to boost their position for next season.

    And then you have the teams trying for the post season.

    Fastballs don't get any slower. Curves don't get any straighter. Line drives don't fall any more often. The fact that it's September does not change the accomplishments. Individuals still are trying, even if for selfish reasons.

    The fact it's September doesn't diminish the ability to hit a baseball or make it any easier to do so.
    Greed provides meaning.

    Awesome.

    So much for rooting for the team. Let's just root for individual players.

    How fantasy sports-esque.

  7. #306
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    I might buy jojo's sample size argument and the idea that some AAAA pitchers are toiling away instead of a true major league veteran, but, really, how many ABs are we talking?

    The idea that these games mean nothing is beyond ridiculous. I can't believe that's even being argued.

    As to Stubbs:

    I've probably seen Stubbs 20 times over the course of his minor league career. I think I saw one legitimate extra base hit in those 20 games. (In looking back at my scorecards, he's had five doubles, but three of them were legged out and one was misjudged somehow.) No homers but a few wall scrapers. Overall, his bat would make wet noodles feel good about their al dente preparation.

    But his swing now is much different than his minor league swing. His balance is much better and he doesn't lunge forward at all. Too, while his swing has, in the past, been angled down (he chopped at the ball), it's now level to a slight uppercut. The results have shown some power undeniably. More than some, actually.

    I don't think he'll ever hit for a high average. He's got some holes in his swing too and will K in bunches. (He could very well top 175 K's with 600 ABs.) But he'll walk some and hit with some authority.

    At his absolute best, he's Mike Cameron offensively. At his worst, he's post-'roids Steve Finley. With his speed, arm, range, and instincts in CF, he's certainly a plus going forward and the likely CF over Willy Taveras in 2010.

    I'm guessing he gets the majority of the ABs in center next season, with Dickerson or Heisey as fourth OF and spot starter. I really think Taveras is going to be DFA'ed.

    That in itself is enough of a reason to love Drew Stubbs.
    Last edited by Scrap Irony; 09-22-2009 at 01:09 PM.
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  8. #307
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Greed provides meaning.

    Awesome.

    So much for rooting for the team. Let's just root for individual players.

    How fantasy sports-esque.
    Welcome to the world of professional sports.

    I'm not suggesting players don't care about winning or about their teams. But for the teams that are essentially playing for little more than pride, individual benchmarks and goals do take on added meaning. Like it or not, that's the reality of today's culture.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  9. #308
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    It was the reality in the past too. In Boston, the sportswriters called Ted Williams selfish and said he cared too much for his own game and not enough for his team. Same with others throughout the history of the game.

    To insist it isn't so is another assertion ground in... nothing.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  10. #309
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Greed provides meaning.

    Awesome.

    So much for rooting for the team. Let's just root for individual players.

    How fantasy sports-esque.
    I've never seen such weak attempts to degrade Stubbs.

    Obviously these games have meaning to him. He's playing for a spot next season, and trying to establish himself as a major league player.

    As usual, there are reasons not to like Stubbs. You don't need to go out of your way to make arguments that have nothing to do with valuing the player.

    I also find it odd that you see no reason to believe that his power can continue at some reasonable pace, but at the same time, make no concession that his OBP numbers could improve when he showed that ability up and down the minors.

  11. #310
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    The idea that these games mean nothing is beyond ridiculous. I can't believe that's even being argued.
    You'll have that with absurdities

  12. #311
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    I remember an episode of The Simpsons, where Moe was sticking by his purchase of a rodeo bull machine over a karaoke machine, saying that even now, he'd make the same choice again.

    I see both sides being a bit like Moe here.

    Some on the pro Stubbs side are sticking by the Reds choice of him over Lincecum, trying to make him more than he is to justify the choice, while some on the anti Stubbs side are sticking by their claim after he was picked that he would be a flop.

    I think it's clear the truth lies in the middle somewhere, he clearly will never be as good of a pick as Lincecum, but he doesn't seem to be looking like a flop either. At the very least, he looks like a solid 4th outfielder who can provide outstanding defense in CF off the bench. While not what you hope for out of a 1st round pick, he can have a lot of value for the team over the years, even if he never is more than that.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  13. #312
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    Some on the pro Stubbs side are sticking by the Reds choice of him over Lincecum, trying to make him more than he is to justify the choice, while some on the anti Stubbs side are sticking by their claim after he was picked that he would be a flop.
    I don't think anyone on the pro Stubbs side gives two craps about Tim Lincecum being passed up when it comes to evaluating Drew Stubbs. It seems most on the other side really want to just break down and cry still over it.

  14. #313
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post

    Some on the pro Stubbs side are sticking by the Reds choice of him over Lincecum, trying to make him more than he is to justify the choice, while some on the anti Stubbs side are sticking by their claim after he was picked that he would be a flop.
    The Reds were moronic to pass Lincecum up. He could blow his arm out tomorrow and that would still be true.

    Having said that, it's long past time to stop dwelling on the past and focus on the current -- the Reds didn't draft Tim Lincecum and a fleet of DeLoreans can't change that fact. Drew Stubbs deserves the right to succeed or fail on his own merit without being judged on who was drafted near or around him.
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  15. #314
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    The Reds were moronic to pass Lincecum up. He could blow his arm out tomorrow and that would still be true.

    Having said that, it's long past time to stop dwelling on the past and focus on the current -- the Reds didn't draft Tim Lincecum and a fleet of DeLoreans can't change that fact. Drew Stubbs deserves the right to succeed or fail on his own merit without being judged on who was drafted near or around him.
    Now you've done it.

    You've gone and injected sense into the argument!

    I hope you're happy with yourself!

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  16. #315
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    The Reds were moronic to pass Lincecum up. He could blow his arm out tomorrow and that would still be true.

    Having said that, it's long past time to stop dwelling on the past and focus on the current -- the Reds didn't draft Tim Lincecum and a fleet of DeLoreans can't change that fact. Drew Stubbs deserves the right to succeed or fail on his own merit without being judged on who was drafted near or around him.
    You can say that about most drafts. I guess that is really the problem I have with people hanging onto the Lincecum argument for so many years now. In reality if Stubbs becomes an above average CF, which he has the ability to become, then he actually was a good pick. Heck the Alonso pick has already started to come under question because he isn't Beckham. I just don't understand it, but it is just the way some people are.


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