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Thread: Cordero for Lidge?

  1. #16
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Don't get me wrong, I'd like to get rid of Cordero -- but that's for the cost savings. I'm not sure what trading him for Lidge would accomplish. And I certainly don't have confidence in our coaching staff to fix whatever is wrong with Lidge.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Just wait until the Reds are struggling to get through the seventh and eighth inning because team traded away it's good bullpen for payflex. Have fun with the angst that will cause.

    Already there is a lack of depth with the Weathers trade. Keep skimping, trading for guys coming off bad years, and assuming that the pen will take care of itself.

    Good way to destroy a good ballclub.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-26-2009 at 12:03 PM.

  4. #18
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Just wait until the Reds are struggling to get through the seventh and eighth inning because team traded away it's good bullpen for payflex. Have fun with the angst that will cause.

    Already there is a lack of depth with the Weathers trade. Keep skimping, trading for guys coming off bad years, and assuming that the pen will take care of itself.

    Good way to destroy a good ballclub.
    Everything you just wrote makes perfect sense to me... except that last line. Do you really think the Reds are a "good" ballclub with the way the roster is currently constructed around Rolen, Harang, Arroyo, Cordero?

    That said, I'm with you at least in this case. Simply trading Cordero for Lidge is obviously not going to accomplish anything, and I don't think the Phillies (in their right minds at least) could add enough else into the deal to make it worthwhile.
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  5. #19
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Everything you just wrote makes perfect sense to me... except that last line. Do you really think the Reds are a "good" ballclub with the way the roster is currently constructed around Rolen, Harang, Arroyo, Cordero?

    .

    IMO the criticism of the four contracts is incorrect. I'm glad the Reds paid for a forty save closer, two good durable starters, and a third baseman who solidifies the defense and provides winning leadership.

    I think the press considers the Reds as a perennial failure that has no business seeking out the very top players. I disagree. I want them to get as many stars as they can get.

    Yes, expensive players leave less room for acquisitions. But the Reds are loaded with good young kids who can fill out the roster and some should succeed.

    So I have no problem with the Cordero deal. I remember the eighth inning woes of a few years ago. I think Cordero has added a lot, and if he stays effective the next two years can help the team finally become a winner.

    And, no, they haven't been good recently but are headed there. They need offense, but they have Alonso, Frazier, Francisco, Heisey and others who can add offense or be traded for offense. They have the talent, now it's a question of making the right decisions with these young assets.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-26-2009 at 12:45 PM.

  6. #20
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    IMO the criticism of the four contracts is incorrect. I'm glad the Reds paid for a forty save closer, two good durable starters, and a third baseman who solidifies the defense and provides winning leadership.

    I think the press considers the Reds as a perennial failure that has no business seeking out the very top players. I disagree. I want them to get as many stars as they can get.

    Yes, expensive players leave less room for acquisitions. But the Reds are loaded with good young kids who can fill out the roster and some should succeed.

    So I have no problem with the Cordero deal. I remember the eighth inning woes of a few years ago. I think Cordero has added a lot, and if he stays effective the next two years can help the team finally become a winner.

    And, no, they haven't been good recently but are headed there. They need offense, but they have Alonso, Frazier, Francisco, Heisey and others who can add offense or be traded for offense. They have the talent, now it's a question of making the right decisions with these young assets.
    Except they are at or over the budget, have no SS, no C, a need for a run producer and the 5th spot in the rotaton is a big question. I'd like to see them keep everybody, but if we have to make choices, I'd reduce the cost of the pen to shore up other areas. I'd feel better about it if Stewart were still here, but Massett, Burton, Bray, Herrera, Fisher, Rhodes and some of the failed starters could be effective. Maybe they bring in a cheaper guy for the mix.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  7. #21
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    This deal would only make sense if the cash/prospects coming back from the Phillies is large enough such that it no longer makes no sense to the Phillies.
    I think that's the key.

    No way the Reds get Drabek, Taylor or Brown, and no one else really impresses.

    But how about all cash? The Reds really could use cash this off season. How about $8M? That would get the Reds around a 2 win player. Maybe a solid #4 starter so that they can then trade Arroyo, free up more money and get a 3 win player, maybe a big bat for the middle of the lineup?

    Maybe make it all one trade?

    Cordero, Arroyo for Lidge, Werth and $2M? The Reds would then have around $7M to spend on starter to replace Arroyo.

    Reds get Werth out of it, while the Phillies get a closer, a starter and all it costs them is Werth and around $7M in additional salary.
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  8. #22
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Except they are at or over the budget, have no SS, no C, a need for a run producer and the 5th spot in the rotaton is a big question. I'd like to see them keep everybody, but if we have to make choices, I'd reduce the cost of the pen to shore up other areas. I'd feel better about it if Stewart were still here, but Massett, Burton, Bray, Herrera, Fisher, Rhodes and some of the failed starters could be effective. Maybe they bring in a cheaper guy for the mix.
    All the talk about the Reds budget is sheer speculation. Nobody thought the Reds had the money for Cordero, but they did. If the right opportunity is presented, my guess is they will spend some.

    And it may not take a fortune to fill the current holes. There are kids who could be advanced. Or they could be traded for players who are not that expensive. Or maybe the Reds have one more major contract to offer.

    We just have different views on the value of a bullpen. You want to load it up with middle relievers and "failed starters." i want a proven closer with Massett covering the eighth and other guys having lesser roles.

    What a trade this would be. Lidge bombs out with the Phils and the Reds just run out, trade a forty save closer, and pick him up. If anything would solidify the team's losing image that would be it. Phils might add in a second tier prospect. More false hope for the future by a team that won't pay for top players.

    Again, skimp on the pen and get ready for some late inning heartburn next year. We've been there, and it ain't fun. I'll keep Coco, thanks.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-26-2009 at 02:21 PM.

  9. #23
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    All the talk about the Reds budget is sheer speculation. Nobody thought the Reds had the money for Cordero, but they did. If the right opportunity is presented, my guess is they will spend some.

    And it may not take a fortune to fill the current holes. There are kids who could be advanced. Or they could be traded for players who are not that expensive. Or maybe the Reds have one more major contract to offer.

    We just have different views on the value of a bullpen. You want to load it up with middle relievers and "failed starters." i want a proven closer with Massett covering the eighth and other guys having lesser roles.

    Again, skimp on the pen and get ready for some late inning heartburn next year. We've been there, and it ain't fun.
    I just think Masset with Rhodes, Burton, Herrera and Bray setting him up has a better chance to be an effective pen than a line-up with holes at C, SS and unprovens in the OF. The Reds need to add players and the team as structured is already at this year's salary number in 2010. With the attendance as low as any time in recent memory, I just can't believe its going to go up. They have no alternative for the rotation, so reducing cost by moving Harang and Arroyo seems unlikely. They've made their bed at 3B and 2B with expensive players and though costly, they are two of the three solid position players on the roster so moving them out would be counterproductive. There is $7.5 Million in dead money going to Taveras, Lincoln and Hernandez with little hope of any being recouped. Cordero is the most likely guy who can be moved and backfilled for cheap. I like Cordero and think he has done a good job, but the situation has changed now and that money is needed to make other improvements to the roster. Pretending that the Reds can fix these things by pushing the payroll to $80 Million or more isn't realistic.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  10. #24
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I just think Masset with Rhodes, Burton, Herrera and Bray setting him up has a better chance to be an effective pen than a line-up with holes at C, SS and unprovens in the OF. The Reds need to add players and the team as structured is already at this year's salary number in 2010. With the attendance as low as any time in recent memory, I just can't believe its going to go up. They have no alternative for the rotation, so reducing cost by moving Harang and Arroyo seems unlikely. They've made their bed at 3B and 2B with expensive players and though costly, they are two of the three solid position players on the roster so moving them out would be counterproductive. There is $7.5 Million in dead money going to Taveras, Lincoln and Hernandez with little hope of any being recouped. Cordero is the most likely guy who can be moved and backfilled for cheap. I like Cordero and think he has done a good job, but the situation has changed now and that money is needed to make other improvements to the roster. Pretending that the Reds can fix these things by pushing the payroll to $80 Million or more isn't realistic.
    I think what's unrealistic is a bullpen with Massett backed up by Rhodes, Burton, Herrera and Bray. Team won't win with that. With that bullpen, you can save all the rest of the money or use it for additional food concessions or something.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-26-2009 at 02:57 PM.

  11. #25
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Here I thought the going wisdom was that Ryan Franklin's grow on trees.
    Ryan Franklin isn't that hard to find. The Reds got a little better version in a player dump deal (Masset).
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    i like the idea of sending Cordero to to Philly, but i wonder why the Reds would have to get Lidge in return. I'm sure the Phils wouldn't mind putting Lidge back into the setup role that he was in in Houston.

    i think the target needs to be glovely middle infielder with some sort of offensive upside, be it hitting, or power, or speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I think what's unrealistic is a bullpen with Massett backed up by Rhodes, Burton, Herrera and Bray. Team won't win with that.
    i agree.
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  13. #27
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    I wouldn't want either guy's (Lidge, Cordero) contract.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #28
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I thing what's unrealistic is a bullpen with Massett backed up by Rhodes, Burton, Herrera and Bray. Team won't win with that. With that bullpen, you can save all the rest of the money or use it for additional food concessions or whatever. So now we're counting on Bray?
    I don't think its ideal, but it has a lot better chance for success than hoping Janish, Hanigan, Stubbs, Bruce, Gomes, Balentien, Dickerson, and Sutton all come through in 2010. The Reds have three position players who are surefire major leaguers in Votto, Rolen and Phillips. Dickerson, Stubbs, and Bruce probably are. Gomes is needed back, but he'll cost whatever is left of the budget. Hanigan can do some of the catching. From there you still need 5 position players at least 1 of whom is a starting SS, 1 who is a primary catcher and another LH Hitting OF who can be a 400 AB guy who can hit in the middle of the order somewhere. And that is still hoping that some combination of Maloney, Owings and Wells or whoever can be the 5th starter. How can this be done with no budget to work with? I think it has to come from somewhere. I doubt it will be Cast's pocket.
    Last edited by mth123; 09-26-2009 at 03:27 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I don't think its ideal, but it has a lot better chance for success than hoping Janish, Hanigan, Stubbs, Bruce, Gomes, Balentien, Dickerson, and Sutton all come through in 2010. The Reds have three position players who a surefire major leaguers in Votto, Rolen and Phillips. Dickerson, Stubbs, and Bruce probably are. Gomes is needed back, but he'll cost whatever is left of the budget. Hanigan can do some of the catching. From there you still need 5 position players at least 1 of whom is a starting SS, 1 who is a primary catcher and another LH Hitting OF who can be a 400 AB guy who can hit in the middle of the order somewhere. And that is still hoping that some combination of Maloney, Owings and Wells or whoever can be the 5th starter. How can this be done with no budget to work with? I think it has to come form somewhere. I doubt it will be Cast's pocket.
    I'm signing off now, good discussion.

    My answer to your post is one word. Pitching.

    Pitching is the most important part of the team. Don't skimp on it. The Reds need to find ways to improve the offense. One thing they should not do is weaken their pitching.

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    Re: Cordero for Lidge?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Ryan Franklin isn't that hard to find. The Reds got a little better version in a player dump deal (Masset).
    A little better?

    Massest throws gas and strikes out many.

    Franklin pitches to contact and relies upon luck. There's a reason his xFIP is always in the 4's.


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