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Thread: First AFL Box score

  1. #106
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Except that the "plan" is now the hibernating kind. Who can take that kind of rumor seriously?

    Now, it's certainly possible the team will one day trade Votto and replace him with Alonso. What I find completely implausible is that some guy talking at a ballgame in 2009 can know what the team has designs on doing a season down the road, as if the team itself knows.
    A guy talking at a baseball game? What are you talking about?

    As for not being able to take it seriously because its a plan for the near future.... say what now? You can't believe that teams would try to come up with a plan on how to go about using a Top 15 prospect in baseball who they signed to a major league contract? You really can't take it seriously that they would put a plan in place for that guy?

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  3. #107
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Zack Cozart has a HR out in Arizona today.

  4. #108
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    A guy talking at a baseball game? What are you talking about?
    Or wherever.

    As for not being able to take it seriously because its a plan for the near future.... say what now? You can't believe that teams would try to come up with a plan on how to go about using a Top 15 prospect in baseball who they signed to a major league contract? You really can't take it seriously that they would put a plan in place for that guy?
    No, I don't think teams put plans in place to trade particular players in a year. There are too many unknowns involved. Mainly, how will that player perform between now and then? What will the trade market offer? And, in this case, how will the prospect perform between now and then?

    The plan re: Alonso and his major league deal needed only to establish a timetable by which he could reasonably be seen to get major league ready. As for what moves might be made to facilitate his staying in the majors, assuming he has shown the talent to deserve a spot, the team is going to keep its options open (trade Votto/trade Alonso/move Votto to LF). It's not going to decide way ahead of time which of these moves it will make.

    That the scout, or whoever, would talk as if such a plan had been hatched is really somewhat weird, but probably par for the course on the periphery of the game's inner sanctum.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  5. #109
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Or wherever.
    If it were just 'some guy' it would be a bit different. It was a scout for a national league team that lives in Cincinnati and has ties to the Reds.


    No, I don't think teams put plans in place to trade particular players in a year. There are too many unknowns involved. Mainly, how will that player perform between now and then? What will the trade market offer? And, in this case, how will the prospect perform between now and then?
    I think you are missing out on how baseball works. If a team doesn't have a plan for the future then they are lost before they get there. Plans can certainly change, but you can bet your bottom dollar the Reds have a good idea, right now, on what the plan is for when Yonder Alonso is ready.

    The plan re: Alonso and his major league deal need only establish a timetable by which he could reasonably be seen to get major league ready. As for what moves might be made to facilitate his staying in the majors, assuming he has shown the talent to deserve a spot, the team is going to keep its options open (trade Votto/trade Alonso/move Votto to LF). It's not going to decide way ahead of time which of these moves it will make.
    In a typical situation you may be a little more right that the situation will play itself out a little more as time goes along. But in this situation, where at least the rumor is that the Reds don't feel that they can count on Votto to be there all the time because of his problems, its not quite the same as a 'normal' situation.

    That the scout, or whoever, would talk as if such a plan had been hatched is really somewhat weird, but probably par for the course on the periphery of the game's inner sanctum.
    Why is it weird? How is it any more weird than 'The Diamondbacks are looking to trade Stephen Drew' or 'The Blue Jays are looking to trade Roy Halladay' or 'The Indians are looking to trade Cliff Lee'?

  6. #110
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Or wherever.



    No, I don't think teams put plans in place to trade particular players in a year. There are too many unknowns involved. Mainly, how will that player perform between now and then? What will the trade market offer? And, in this case, how will the prospect perform between now and then?

    The plan re: Alonso and his major league deal needed only to establish a timetable by which he could reasonably be seen to get major league ready. As for what moves might be made to facilitate his staying in the majors, assuming he has shown the talent to deserve a spot, the team is going to keep its options open (trade Votto/trade Alonso/move Votto to LF). It's not going to decide way ahead of time which of these moves it will make.

    That the scout, or whoever, would talk as if such a plan had been hatched is really somewhat weird, but probably par for the course on the periphery of the game's inner sanctum.
    +1

    Whoever is telling doug Votto is being moved is either pulling his leg, lying, or an idiot. No matter which, it doesn't help the Reds at all.
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  7. #111
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    +1

    Whoever is telling doug Votto is being moved is either pulling his leg, lying, or an idiot. No matter which, it doesn't help the Reds at all.
    Or they could be right. I simply can't believe that you can't believe that there is a chance the Reds don't feel that they can rely on Votto given what happened this year. I also can't believe that there is no way that trading Votto makes the Reds better. There are ways that can happen.

  8. #112
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    If they don't trust Votto, they're idiots. He came back and played at a HOF level. He was, after his episode, better than all but three National League players. And they relied on him pretty heavily for the rest of the season, too. Very few days off, in the middle of the order.

    More importantly than his episode, however, is what happened with his bat. He became the best youn player in the National League at his position. He's just under Pujols in terms of production.

    Sure, there are ways dealing him MAY help the Reds, but the other team would have to overpay in the extreme. And Alonso would have to become Votto (or nearly so).

    Too much to hope for.

    Secondly, I truly don't believe that, one, the team would have that discussion with a scout, and two, that scout would then tell you. So, unless you're getting your information from Jocketty himself, I'm guessing the guy who said something to you either lied, was seeing how far the rumor might go, or full of crap.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  9. #113
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    If they don't trust Votto, they're idiots. He came back and played at a HOF level. He was, after his episode, better than all but three National League players. And they relied on him pretty heavily for the rest of the season, too. Very few days off, in the middle of the order.
    Except that in August he hit .220/.336/.367 and admitted he was dealing with it all again. I don't think that can be ignored.

    Sure, there are ways dealing him MAY help the Reds, but the other team would have to overpay in the extreme. And Alonso would have to become Votto (or nearly so).
    I don't think that teams would have to overpay to the extreme.


    Secondly, I truly don't believe that, one, the team would have that discussion with a scout, and two, that scout would then tell you. So, unless you're getting your information from Jocketty himself, I'm guessing the guy who said something to you either lied, was seeing how far the rumor might go, or full of crap.
    I have known this guy for about 7 years now. Very honest man. I don't think he lied, wanted to see how far the rumor might go or anything like that. He isn't the type to just 'make something up' for fun. Whether the information he got was reliable or not, that is something else. But I highly doubt that he was not given the information from someone he trusts or he would not have brought it up.

  10. #114
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Votto's line: .322 BA .414 OBP .567 SLG .981 OPS 152+ OPS+

    $390,000 salary

    If another team doesn't overpay, the Reds are truly without hope.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  11. #115
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    If it were just 'some guy' it would be a bit different. It was a scout for a national league team that lives in Cincinnati and has ties to the Reds.
    He's on the periphery. He doesn't know what Jocketty will do on any front. As I stated, Jocketty himself has no idea what he will do "when Alonso is ready" (the reputed trigger point for a Votto deal). There is just no way to predict what the trade market will be for Votto or Alonso at that time.

    I think you are missing out on how baseball works. If a team doesn't have a plan for the future then they are lost before they get there. Plans can certainly change, but you can bet your bottom dollar the Reds have a good idea, right now, on what the plan is for when Yonder Alonso is ready.
    I told you what I thought the plan is. Either trade Votto, trade Alonso or move Votto to LF. That's a plan. By keeping their options open, they maximize their ability to make the best move for the team. They still have all of 2010 to collect valuable information and make a decision. That's a critical part of the plan -- get the best data to inform the decision.

    In a typical situation you may be a little more right that the situation will play itself out a little more as time goes along. But in this situation, where at least the rumor is that the Reds don't feel that they can count on Votto to be there all the time because of his problems, its not quite the same as a 'normal' situation.
    I don't buy that Votto's health issues are informing the team's plans. I just don't. Like any situation, it will play itself out, and prevailing circumstances at the time will dictate what happens.

    Why is it weird? How is it any more weird than 'The Diamondbacks are looking to trade Stephen Drew' or 'The Blue Jays are looking to trade Roy Halladay' or 'The Indians are looking to trade Cliff Lee'?
    The main difference is that in those 3 cases the team is/was looking to trade now, in the present market. This Votto rumor, apparently, reveals a plan to trade in a future market. I just don't think teams make plans like that. I'll say it again -- they're going to keep their options open.

    Let's be clear here. Are you claiming you believe the team is planning now to trade Votto as soon as they feel Alonso is ready? Because you seem to give 100% credence to this rumor. If you don't believe it, I probably don't need to be arguing with you.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  12. #116
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Or they could be right. I simply can't believe that you can't believe that there is a chance the Reds don't feel that they can rely on Votto given what happened this year. I also can't believe that there is no way that trading Votto makes the Reds better. There are ways that can happen.
    I can believe it, it's just premature in my mind especially someone the caliber of person/player Votto is.

    And to answer your previous question to me about who I'd rather trade, yes I'd rather trade all that unknown talent instead of a legit cornerstone. Not always would I but I feel Votto is the type of player you build around like as I expressed before a Jeter, a Varitek type. Plus we would be receiving a legit SS who is young and a nice productive player in his prime who is equally as good defensively as he is offensively and a decent backup MI. That is three monumental steps forward in competing in '10.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  13. #117
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Zack Cozart has hit 2 HR's today in the AFL.

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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Zack Cozart has hit 2 HR's today in the AFL.
    Cool, now its time for Alonso to heat up

  15. #119
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    I was at this AFL game (and last nights) Cozarts HR's were both to just left of CF both were well up the berm. Nice blasts.

    He also singled in the 8th. Boxberger came in and was very solid in 2 innings. Not eye opening. Watson had nothing.

    The most impressive outing I saw in 2 days? Tanner Scheppers.... wow.

  16. #120
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    Re: First AFL Box score

    Yeah... time to give up the dream for Watson... yuck...
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