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Thread: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

  1. #76
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    So the Reds should have gone to the lowest bidder, like many here were predicting?

    Sems to me, you likely get what you pay for.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  3. #77
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    It's a good hire and I'm impressed by the fact that he chose the Reds when he had other offers on the table. Seems like in recent times the Reds had not been able to get the target when they were in demand by other teams.

  4. #78
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Am I the only one thinking this may mean Owings is a lock for 5th starter?
    Suck it up cupcake.

  5. #79
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    So the Reds should have gone to the lowest bidder, like many here were predicting?

    Sems to me, you likely get what you pay for.
    I'm not sure if you're addressing the question to me since it's not a logical extension of my position but I'll answer anyway.

    The Reds should hire who they think will do a good job and is the best fit for them. Fans on the other hand shouldn't be quick to ascribe fluctuations in performance to the credit/blame of the pitching coach. Between sample size and true talent issues, there probably isn't a pitching coach in baseball who accurately gets judged by the fans and this is especially so given there are probably 30 different job descriptions for the position in mlb.

    For instance, Bryan Price was an awesome pitching coach from 2000 to 2003 but a lousy one in 2004 and 2005 based upon the Ms ERA.

    All of that said, Price basically ran the Ms pitching staffs under Lou with few exceptions. He's very likely to be a good resource for the Reds skipper. However, it's unrealistic to expect that Price will significantly shave runs off of the Reds RA/g and then evaluate him based upon such expectations.
    Last edited by jojo; 10-18-2009 at 02:15 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #80
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I'm not sure if you're addressing the question to me since it's not a logical extension of my position but I'll answer anyway.

    The Reds should hire who they think will do a good job and is the best fit for them. Fans on the other hand shouldn't be quick to ascribe fluctuations in performance to the credit/blame of the pitching coach. Between sample size and true talent issues, there probably isn't a pitching coach in baseball who accurately gets judged by the fans and this is especially so given there are probably 30 different job descriptions for the position in mlb.

    For instance, Bryan Price was an awesome pitching coach from 2000 to 2003 but a lousy one in 2004 and 2005 based upon the Ms ERA.

    All of that said, Price basically ran the Ms pitching staffs under Lou with few exceptions. He's very likely to be a good resource for the Reds skipper. However, it's unrealistic to expect that Price will significantly shave runs off of the Reds RA/g and then evaluate him based upon such expectations.
    Has anyone been arguing that is the expectation of the new pitching coach? I think people are glad to see them hire someone who has been the pitching coach when a staff was successful, with an understanding of the limitations that we have in forming an opinion of good hire/bad hire because of the highly technical nature of the position. At least that is where I'm at.

  7. #81
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    I'm saying he's a good hire who often finds success with pitchers who, in other stops, aren't as good. Too, he finds success with pitchers that often make that next leap up the ladder of effectiveness.

    Good pitching coaches make a habit of that.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  8. #82
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    I'm saying he's a good hire who often finds success with pitchers who, in other stops, aren't as good. Too, he finds success with pitchers that often make that next leap up the ladder of effectiveness.

    Good pitching coaches make a habit of that.
    Just for curiosity's sake and because others have asked about resumes in this thread, who might be on the list of guys that Price has coached up to a level beyond what they might have been expected to perform?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Just for curiosity's sake and because others have asked about resumes in this thread, who might be on the list of guys that Price has coached up to a level beyond what they might have been expected to perform?
    Go check out the stats for the teams he's coached.

    I think it suffices to say, if you're insisting on some kind of statistical evidence, his staffs have had consistently good ERA numbers relative to other staffs in their league.

    Beyond that, he comes with a very good reputation. He had multiple offers in the first 2 weeks of the postseason. That stuff happens for a reason, not because he has deluded lots of people in the industry.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  10. #84
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Go check out the stats for the teams he's coached.

    I think it suffices to say, if you're insisting on some kind of statistical evidence, his staffs have had consistently good ERA numbers relative to other staffs in their league.

    Beyond that, he comes with a very good reputation. He had multiple offers in the first 2 weeks of the postseason. That stuff happens for a reason, not because he has deluded lots of people in the industry.
    His staffs had had pretty good ERAs relative to the league when he has had some pretty good staffs relative to the league.

    I'm obviously curious, as everyone would be, about the claim he has consistently coached guys up because that could effect one's excitement over the hire.
    Last edited by jojo; 10-18-2009 at 05:12 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    I think that we are hoping that if the pitchers have the talent that Price can help the pitchers bring that talent out on a more consistent basis, where another coach might not be able to achieve that.

    Some individuals are more receptive and learn better from ones instructions vs another at times.

    I think with our questions that we might be looking for some encouragement from his history as a pitching coach that he has been able to achieve that for pitchers under his direction throughout his pitching coach career, and are seeking some reinforcing examples.

    Surely we as a group are optimistic at this point that Price can accomplish with the staff that the Reds have or might have in the future.

    The only question that I had about him was during the time that Mariner fans were very excited about the young pitching drafts, and the positive indicators that some of that young pitching showed as high as the AAA level, and with numbers that truly seemed promising, but somehow those young pitchers did not quite translate at the major league level so much for one reason or another as starters. I have no idea whether Price and Lou was attributable to their successes or lack there of. Some of those had some degree of success and then not so much.

    I thought what JoJo was saying is, that like any pitching coach they have had their successes, and had their challenges, and that we should not be unrealistically expecting miracles if the talent is just not there in a given pitcher or pitchers.

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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    His staffs had had pretty good ERAs relative to the league when he has had some pretty good staffs relative to the league.
    Whatever. You could claim he coached them so they pitched up to their potential. Chicken, or egg, right?

    There are a couple important patterns here that are obvious to anyone. His staffs have done well consistently vs. the league. Many teams are interested in his services. If you can't recognize that kind of evidence -- which is excellent evidence when trying to evaluate a coach, in my opinion -- you're not going to see this hire clearly.

    I suggest you back away from taking a microscope to this. The best resolution requires a broader look.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  13. #87
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    I thought what JoJo was saying is, that like any pitching coach they have had their successes, and had their challenges, and that we should not be unrealistically expecting miracles if the talent is just not there in a given pitcher or pitchers.
    No one is claiming miracles are at hand. People are simply impressed by Price's credentials and by the Reds' ability to beat out other organizations for his services. Jojo seems to have a hard time accepting that.

    Price is, after all, ex-property of the Mariners who has gone on to carve out a very nice reputation and career for himself after leaving Seattle.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  14. #88
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Whatever. You could claim he coached them so they pitched up to their potential. Chicken, or egg, right?

    There are a couple important patterns here that are obvious to anyone. His staffs have done well consistently vs. the league. Many teams are interested in his services. If you can't recognize that kind of evidence -- which is excellent evidence when trying to evaluate a coach, in my opinion -- you're not going to see this hire clearly.

    I suggest you back away from taking a microscope to this. The best resolution requires a broader look.
    I don’t have any problems with anything anyone has asked or written in the entire thread.

    I do though want some indicators that Price has a good history with young lesser experienced major league pitchers. Mainly because I don’t think that in today’s market and cost for good experienced major league pitching that the Reds can afford to buy it, and I believe they will have to develop most of it from within, if they are to have good pitching. So with my mindset, I am compelled to believe that the Reds have to have talented coaches that can contribute to developing that pitching. So it is natural to ask, does Price have that background that is evidenced by examples with young inexperienced major league pitching?

    No one is looking to tear the guy down, but rather an even stronger reason to believe in him.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 10-18-2009 at 05:58 PM.

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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    I'm arguing that fans give mlb pitching coaches too much credit/blame because for the most part they are interchangeable.
    So, we're back to having kids with keyboards making pitching changes are we?

    Do you not understand what kind of skills a pitching coach should have? Do you not understand that those skills require talent and hard work to develop?

    No one will ever quantify the contributions of pitching coaches. That does not mean their contributions are miniscule or identical.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  16. #90
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Jojo seems to have a hard time accepting that.
    I targeted JoJo and Raisor with questions because I know that they are long time Mariner enthusiast, that is fans of the organization. I know that most fans are more familiar with given organizations throughout than say a fan of just one club such as the Reds, such as I am, leaving me with a very limited insight of the Mariners compared to a JoJo or a Raisor who have followed them with some depth.

    I believe that JoJo and Raisor although asked for some expertise on Price and the Mariners unfairly, have answered very well. There is no requirement for them to answer anything, they could have said, you got questions, you look it up, but they didn't.

    If you have researched his work and conclude to tell us that he has a very good background with evidence of accomplishment, that is good enough for me.


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