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Thread: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

  1. #91
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    There may not be much difference between most pitching coaches in the majors, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a big impact on a pitching staff. A bad pitching coach can ruin pitching staffs, and individual pitchers who need good coaching.

    The Reds have had a history of bad coaching, of not being able to develop talent, mostly due to the team's willingness to only sign affordable coaches. While Price may not be exceptional, the fact that he is qualified and competent marks a clear improvement for this organization.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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  3. #92
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    There may not be much difference between most pitching coaches in the majors, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a big impact on a pitching staff. A bad pitching coach can ruin pitching staffs, and individual pitchers who need good coaching.

    The Reds have had a history of bad coaching, of not being able to develop talent, mostly due to the team's willingness to only sign affordable coaches. While Price may not be exceptional, the fact that he is qualified and competent marks a clear improvement for this organization.
    Dick Pole was certainly qualified when the Reds hired him. BTW, similar arguments were made for Dusty when Bob C went out and spent the big bucks to get Baker to ink a deal....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #93
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    So, we're back to having kids with keyboards making pitching changes are we?
    Looks like that strawman is leading with his head....he won't last more than a few rounds....

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Do you not understand what kind of skills a pitching coach should have? Do you not understand that those skills require talent and hard work to develop?
    Again, you're giving that strawman a beating.

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    No one will ever quantify the contributions of pitching coaches.
    That's probably true.

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    That does not mean their contributions are miniscule or identical.
    I haven't argued the pitching coach doesn't do anything. I've argued that for the most part, most pitching coaches have about the same effect.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #94
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Dick Pole was certainly qualified when the Reds hired him. BTW, similar arguments were made for Dusty when Bob C went out and spent the big bucks to get Baker to ink a deal....
    I agree. Cast has actually done a good job of hiring at least who he thought was the best coach available since he took over.

    The issue was with the rumors of a tighter payroll, would Cast start acting like Linder/Allen/Schott and hire the first guy who took a lowball offer. That philosophy, throughout the organization, was one of the primary reason why the Reds sucked for so long.

    Price seems to signal that Cast continues to be interested in hiring the best person available. If this continues, the future for the Reds looks much brighter.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    I haven't argued the pitching coach doesn't do anything. I've argued that for the most part, most pitching coaches have about the same effect.
    Effect on what? A pitcher? A staff? A manager? An organization? I wouldn't think pitching coaches, from one to the next, affect these things in the same way, though I would say they can affect all of them a lot.

    My guess is that you're by default trying to reduce all this to some quantifiable entity, and my sense is that that's the wrong dimension to be searching in.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  7. #96
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Looks like that strawman is leading with his head....he won't last more than a few rounds....



    Again, you're giving that strawman a beating.



    That's probably true.



    I haven't argued the pitching coach doesn't do anything. I've argued that for the most part, most pitching coaches have about the same effect.

    Nobody cares about your strawman.

    Let's talk Bryan Price

    I just got off the phone with a relative of mine who has had season tickets to the Mariner's since their inception and he was very complimentary of Bryan Price. He said that the M's wanted to keep him but he decided to go to Arizona to be with Bob Melvin.

    For whatever it's worth, thought I'd pass that along...

  8. #97
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Looks like that strawman is leading with his head....he won't last more than a few rounds....



    Again, you're giving that strawman a beating.



    That's probably true.



    I haven't argued the pitching coach doesn't do anything. I've argued that for the most part, most pitching coaches have about the same effect.
    I thought that you've been arguing that there isn't much for a fan to evaluate a pitching coach, which I agree with. So how do you know if they have about the same effect?

  9. #98
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Looks like that strawman is leading with his head....he won't last more than a few rounds....



    Again, you're giving that strawman a beating.



    That's probably true.



    I haven't argued the pitching coach doesn't do anything. I've argued that for the most part, most pitching coaches have about the same effect.
    Haha, this is a position I took a while ago when the Dave Duncan rumors were hot and heavy, and I almost paid for my life with it.

    I agree with you completely.

  10. #99
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I thought that you've been arguing that there isn't much for a fan to evaluate a pitching coach, which I agree with. So how do you know if they have about the same effect?
    Because if pitching coaches had an obviously large effect, we wouldn't be having this conversation.....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #100
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Because if pitching coaches had an obviously large effect, we wouldn't be having this conversation.....
    Kyle Lohse says hi. As does the rest of the retread staff in St. Louis, especially Carpenter who was at best a #3 starter pre Duncan.

    A good to great pitching coach, one BACKED by the organization can ahve a great impact.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  12. #101
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Nobody cares about your strawman.
    He's not my strawman and I don't care for him either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Let's talk Bryan Price

    I just got off the phone with a relative of mine who has had season tickets to the Mariner's since their inception and he was very complimentary of Bryan Price. He said that the M's wanted to keep him but he decided to go to Arizona to be with Bob Melvin.

    For whatever it's worth, thought I'd pass that along...
    It was time to go for Price when he left the Ms. Under Lou, he looked like a genius but things changed under Melvin and not in a good way concerning pitcher usage etc (starters were rode harder and platoon advantages were treated as imperatives concerning the pen). Then came Hargrove and he was like a caveman trying to play chess concerning the pitching staff. I thought Price had finally had enough given the amount of control he lost when Lou left and how seemingly things changed when he was given less say.

    Then he reunited with Melvin so apparently it wasn't a war of philosophy.

    I've said it before, Price is likely to be a good resource for the Reds skipper. He's a new voice and maybe the Reds staff/org even needs one of those. He certainly should mesh well with the culture of the Reds FO.

    But he's a pitching coach. He's probably not going to get the autonomy as a Red that he had under Lou. Also, as an aside, he's likely to resist the marriage of stats and scouts if anyone cares about that...
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #102
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Kyle Lohse says hi. As does the rest of the retread staff in St. Louis, especially Carpenter who was at best a #3 starter pre Duncan.

    A good to great pitching coach, one BACKED by the organization can ahve a great impact.
    Assuming for the sake of argument Duncan is an evil genius, how many Duncans are floating around?

    Besides, given that the motivation for signing Taveras to the contract that they did was the notion than the Reds could "coach him up" to the player they wanted, should the we really be celebrating the hire of a guy that very well may allow the Reds to justify their belief that they can "coach up" retread arms?

    I have nothing against Price. I hope he does well. He should fit well with the Reds. They likely could have done worse. I'm just not a big fan of the "coaching up" major leaguers plan....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #103
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Effect on what? A pitcher? A staff? A manager? An organization? I wouldn't think pitching coaches, from one to the next, affect these things in the same way, though I would say they can affect all of them a lot.

    My guess is that you're by default trying to reduce all this to some quantifiable entity, and my sense is that that's the wrong dimension to be searching in.
    By effect I mean make the team consistently and tangibly better in way that is meaningfully larger than the effect his colleagues could have.

    Basically if a change doesn't lead to a meaningful difference in true talent then I tend to marginalize it's importance. I guess I don't see Bryan Price affecting the Reds RS/RA relationship to a significantly greater extent than Pole or a Power would effect it. Maybe Price is a tier better than Pole but I'm guessing that Reds pitchers aren't going to suddenly start smoking their projections.
    Last edited by jojo; 10-19-2009 at 01:34 AM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #104
    Battle Toad Historian thatcoolguy_22's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    How much can a pitching coach really be accounted for?

    Leo Mazzone considered to be the bees knees of coaches during the 90's and early 00's when he had Smoltz, Maddux, Avery, Neagle, Millwood, Hampton, Wohlers, Lightenberg, Merker etc etc all in their prime.

    2005 he leaves Atlanta for Baltimore

    Baltimore's 2005 season before Mazzone
    ERA 4.56
    ERA+ 95
    WHIP 1.428
    K/9 6.6
    BB/9 3.7

    Enter Mazzone
    2006
    ERA 5.35
    ERA+ 85
    WHIP 1.545
    K/9 6.4
    BB/9 3.9


    2007
    ERA 5.19
    ERA+ 89
    WHIP 1.520
    K/9 6.8
    BB/9 4.4


    I know there are a lot of other factors involved outside of Mazzone's control, however, pitchers still pitch. Only so much can be expected from Pryce and a dramatic improvement of the staff is outside of his realm of control. I find myself siding with JoJo on this one. Outside of a coach actually finding a fatal flaw in a pitcher's approach to the game I see the difference as being negligible. Sure Duncan might save a career here and there but, how do we know thise types of situations aren't more a quality of the random variation from season to season than Duncan's tutelage?
    Last edited by thatcoolguy_22; 10-19-2009 at 06:41 AM.
    "Last week I helped my friend stay put. It's a lot easier'n helpin' 'em move. I just went over to his house and made sure that he did not start to load **** into a truck."

  16. #105
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Basically if a change doesn't lead to a meaningful difference in true talent then I tend to marginalize it's importance. I guess I don't see Bryan Price affecting the Reds RS/RA relationship to a significantly greater extent than Pole or a Power would effect it. Maybe Price is a tier better than Pole but I'm guessing that Reds pitchers aren't going to suddenly start smoking their projections.
    Who are you arguing with? Because I haven't seen a single post that makes the claims you seem to think you're refuting.

    Your problem is that people are pleased with the hiring.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini


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