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Thread: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

  1. #121
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    It's amazing to me that Willy Taveras gets pulled into the discussion on the new pitching coach. The Willy Taveras issue was the contract not the thought that they could improve his game. If Willy had been brought in on a one yr $500K contract there'd be no problem with it.

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  3. #122
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    The ones who keep getting hired are the ones that are often good. Want to know the effect, talk to the pitchers, they'll tell you it has an effect.
    Yep...just because there isn't a stat to definitively measure something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    Triple negative, anyone?

  4. #123
    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    It's amazing to me that Willy Taveras gets pulled into the discussion on the new pitching coach. The Willy Taveras issue was the contract not the thought that they could improve his game. If Willy had been brought in on a one yr $500K contract there'd be no problem with it.
    People would have less of a problem with what he's getting paid, yes. They would still have a huge issue with the 400+ plate appearances he got this past season though.

  5. #124
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    I'm guessing Bill Bavasi is the reason for the hire. Was he not the GM in Seattle when Price was the pitching coach? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing he was, at least, in the organization then.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  6. #125
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Excluding Dave Duncan, I think what jojo says has merit. Duncan seems to be able to get more out of pitchers, especially pitchers that were perhaps once highly touted, but have failed to live up to expectations. Chris Carpenter pre-Duncan was not the ACE he is now.

    God, not even close.

    Mazzone walked into a perfect storm of pitching, and had the good fortune to coach 3 future HOF starters, one of whom may go down as one of the greatest pitchers of all time. I'm not sure that makes him a great coach or just serendipitous. The same could be said for Rick Peterson. He coached Oakland's big three right? Is that good coaching or just a happy accident. All three since leaving Oakland have had a mixed bag of results/success.

    The question is how much of Price's reputation is due to fortunate circumstances (talent) and how much of it is due to his coaching (The Duncan Effect)?
    I hate to even bring this up, but can we even completely contribute Carpenter's success to Duncan in this day and age? Are we REALLY sure it had more to do with Duncan, and less to do with possible performance enhancing drugs?

    I don't like to point fingers and speculate, and I have no idea whether Carpenter has ever dabbled with the stuff or not. But one has to wonder.

  7. #126
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    I hate to even bring this up, but can we even completely contribute Carpenter's success to Duncan in this day and age? Are we REALLY sure it had more to do with Duncan, and less to do with possible performance enhancing drugs?

    I don't like to point fingers and speculate, and I have no idea whether Carpenter has ever dabbled with the stuff or not. But one has to wonder.
    Well, he was pretty damn good this year. I assume he's tested like everyone else, and he hasn't been named or hinted at in the report BA says he is likely in.

    But something changed for him as a pitcher. And I think that change was Duncan.
    Last edited by TRF; 10-19-2009 at 12:11 PM.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  8. #127
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    I hate to even bring this up, but can we even completely contribute Carpenter's success to Duncan in this day and age? Are we REALLY sure it had more to do with Duncan, and less to do with possible performance enhancing drugs?

    I don't like to point fingers and speculate, and I have no idea whether Carpenter has ever dabbled with the stuff or not. But one has to wonder.
    I'd say there is less of a chance that Carpenter has used PEDs than there is that you really hated to bring this up or point fingers and speculate.

  9. #128
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    I'm guessing Bill Bavasi is the reason for the hire. Was he not the GM in Seattle when Price was the pitching coach? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing he was, at least, in the organization then.
    Price predated Bavasi.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #129
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Price predated Bavasi.
    I thought that Price was there with both Gillick and Bavasi.

  11. #130
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    I thought that Price was there with both Gillick and Bavasi.
    He was.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #131
    The rest is drama. marcshoe's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    I see no reason at all to complain about this hire. You have a respected guy with a decent track record coming in to work with young pitchers; what's not to like?

  13. #132
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by tixe View Post
    I see no reason at all to complain about this hire. You have a respected guy with a decent track record coming in to work with young pitchers; what's not to like?
    The same could have been said about Dick Pole.... I get the impression that redszone generally doesn't like him though.
    Last edited by jojo; 10-19-2009 at 05:16 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #133
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Yep...just because there isn't a stat to definitively measure something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    Triple negative, anyone?
    That's not really the argument though (i.e. it doesn't exist if it can't be measured).

    The argument is that if it can't be measured, then the effect isn't likely to be big.

    That's two dramatically different things.

    In other words, think of the talent distribution of major league-capable pitching coaches in terms of something shaped like a bell curve with poor being on the left and exceptional being toward the right. It's not a normal curve because individuals who clearly aren't up to snuff drop away very quickly into oblivion so the curve is skewed toward the right. It's likely a pretty steep, narrow curve as the majority of individuals are grouped tightly around the mean (because it's tough to demonstrate differences in their effects on a team's RS/RA) with outliers (perhaps Dave Duncan) being fairly fair to the right (thus the skew to the right). This makes sense because baseball pretty much selects for a certain mindset/approach and generally changes occur fairly slowly. Guys who stick around generally fit a certain mold. Case in point, how many pitching coaches are usually interviewed for managerial openings given the stigma that they don't make good managers? Certainly that cant be actually true can it? it's part of the culture of baseball though.

    This doesn't mean that there aren't true differences between the guys grouped in the middle because almost certainly there is a talent distribution even with pitching coaches. But rather, the differences, if they exist, are fairly small and as a result, they (real differences) require a very large sample size in order to be able to detect them with confidence. Thus, a guy might need to be 10-15 years into his career before his effect starts to be detectably different than another guy. If it takes that long to detect a difference, is it really practical to hire a guy based upon a presumed difference in his effect on a team's chances of winning? In practical terms, not really. In essence, pitching coaches are generally fairly interchangeable.

    Why do some pitching coaches hang around a long time while others seem not too? "Good baseball men" tend to hang around a long time. The longer you hang around, the more proven you are... Now there are underlying skills that cement the reputation-don't think the argument is that such skills don't exist or aren't of value. But in general, an organization looks for a guy who fits into their culture (both the FO and the clubhouse), shares a philosophy that won't run counter to the beliefs of the ones making the decisions, and can support the manager. None of this is a bad thing or a pejorative at all. It makes perfect sense actually. It's also just mostly no real big deal.

    Welcome to Cincinnati, Bryan. We all wish you the best and hope you have your greatest success as a Red. Now go prove me a wiggser.
    Last edited by jojo; 10-19-2009 at 05:44 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #134
    We are the angry mob cincyinco's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Well, he was pretty damn good this year. I assume he's tested like everyone else, and he hasn't been named or hinted at in the report BA says he is likely in.

    But something changedd for him as a pitcher. And I think that change was Duncan.
    Something other than the pitching coach changed for carp.

    Health.

    Dude had a lot of health issues when he was a blue bird.
    "I hate to advocate chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... But they've always worked for me."

    -Hunter S. Thompson

  16. #135
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Bryan Price named Pitching coach

    Health alone doesn't account for almost 2 full runs lower ERA and a WHIP that went from 1.5 to 1.0.

    nope, not buying it.

    Duncan fixed him good. Health was a big part of it, but he posted two seasons of 27 and 34 starts and stunk both years in TOR.

    Or we could look at Kyle Lohse, who had his best year as a Cardinal last year, 200 IP 3.78 ERA. Hurt a lot this year he still posted a respectable 4.74 ERA.
    Last edited by TRF; 10-19-2009 at 05:44 PM.
    Suck it up cupcake.


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