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Thread: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

  1. #91
    Baseball card addict MrCinatit's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    1978 was the first year I really started collecting baseball cards in earnest. I think I found a Mitchell Paige card in every third pack - remarkably, almost all of them had the gum stuck to the back.

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  3. #92
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCinatit View Post
    1978 was the first year I really started collecting baseball cards in earnest. I think I found a Mitchell Paige card in every third pack - remarkably, almost all of them had the gum stuck to the back.
    I recall the same thing. Also it seemed Vic Correll was in every other pack that year also.
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Recent Cardinal Hitting coach and former A's outfielder Mitchell Page died at the very young age of 59.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communit...e-dead-at-59/1
    Tough to hear. I watched him play a bit locally in AAA when he was a Pirate farmhand, before his big rookie year with the A's.

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    Member cumberlandreds's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Marty Marion the 1944 NL MVP had died at the age of 93.


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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Marty Marion was before my time. I've never read anything bad about him as a person, and he reportedly was a fine shortstop.
    That said, his selection as NL MVP in 1944 ranks as one of the most absurd MVP picks ever. His WAR score was 4.0 compared to teammate Stan Musial's 9.0, and the "leadership" claim made for him in the linked article was silly.
    I appreciate that his former teammate wants to claim Marion should be in the Hall of Fame, but should Marion be inducted then they should erect a statue of Davey Concepcion in Cooperstown. Marion's career BA/OBP/SLG line is .263/.323.345 with 1448 hits and 36 career HRS, and he missed no playing time because of WWII.
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    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Whenever I see this thread at the top of the board I always get leary about clicking on it to find out who died.
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    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Marty Marion was before my time. I've never read anything bad about him as a person, and he reportedly was a fine shortstop.
    That said, his selection as NL MVP in 1944 ranks as one of the most absurd MVP picks ever. His WAR score was 4.0 compared to teammate Stan Musial's 9.0, and the "leadership" claim made for him in the linked article was silly.
    I appreciate that his former teammate wants to claim Marion should be in the Hall of Fame, but should Marion be inducted then they should erect a statue of Davey Concepcion in Cooperstown. Marion's career BA/OBP/SLG line is .263/.323.345 with 1448 hits and 36 career HRS, and he missed no playing time because of WWII.
    I agree with you about Davey, but that's true for nearly every great SS, since Davey matches up well with most of them.

    But a few points about his 1944 MVP.

    We really have no way of accurately measuring anyone's defense from back in 1944. What people use today for players back then is simply the number of PO and assists per game that the player was responsible for in relation to the league average. Clearly that leaves a lot out, and is in itself not very accurate.

    So we really don't know what Marion's or anyone else from 1944's defensive WAR was, meaning, we really don't know what anyone's true WAR was back then. It is not beyond reason to think that Musial had a much lower defensive WAR and that Marion had a much higher defensive WAR than we presently can measure, which would have resulted in the two having very similar overall WARs.

    Concerning the leadership issue, I don't see how anyone who just watched the effect that Scott Rolen had on the Reds can downplay the value that leadership of a player can bring to a team.
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  9. #98
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I agree with you about Davey, but that's true for nearly every great SS, since Davey matches up well with most of them.

    But a few points about his 1944 MVP.

    We really have no way of accurately measuring anyone's defense from back in 1944. What people use today for players back then is simply the number of PO and assists per game that the player was responsible for in relation to the league average. Clearly that leaves a lot out, and is in itself not very accurate.

    So we really don't know what Marion's or anyone else from 1944's defensive WAR was, meaning, we really don't know what anyone's true WAR was back then. It is not beyond reason to think that Musial had a much lower defensive WAR and that Marion had a much higher defensive WAR than we presently can measure, which would have resulted in the two having very similar overall WARs.

    Concerning the leadership issue, I don't see how anyone who just watched the effect that Scott Rolen had on the Reds can downplay the value that leadership of a player can bring to a team.
    The reason the leadership issue is, well, silly in that if voters had been consistent about that issue then Marion should have won the MVP in 1943 as well. The Cardinals of that era were one of the greatest teams ever. In 1942 the Cardinals went 106-48, in 1943 they went 105-49 and in 1944 they went 105-49, winning the NL pennant each season and the World Series in 1942 and 1944. How can Marion get "extra points" for leadership in 1944 and not in the earlier seasons?
    In 1943 Musial had a BA/OBP/SLG line of .357 .425 .562 with 13 HRs and 81 RBI and a WAR of 8.9. Marion's numbers were .280 .334 .337 and 1 HR, 52 RBI and 3.5 WAR. Musial was named MVP.
    In 1944 Musial actually had a slightly higher WAR than he did in 1943, 9.1, and Marion increased his WAR as well to 4.0. Musial's BA/OBP/SLG was .347 .440 .549 with 12 HRs and 94 RBI while Marion had a line of .267 .324 .362 with 6 HRs and 63 RBI.
    Stan Musial was absolutely, positively a better player than Marty Marion both seasons and there are not any significant differences betwen Musial's edge over Marion in one season as compared to the other.
    Why then did Musial win the MVP in 1943 while Marion won the MVP in 1944? Only the voters know for sure why they voted as they did, but I would venture several possibilities. While Musial's numbers were similar in both seasons, with his WAR actually being higher in the non-MVP year, his batting average was lower in 1944 and he wasn't the batting champion as he had been in 1943, so in an era in love with batting average his 1944 season probably appeared to be poorer than '43.
    Voters have for decades tended to not give a second MVP award to a player who follows up one MVP season with another similar but perhaps slightly lesser season. This happened to Musial. It happened to Willie Mays and to Mickey Mantle numerous times, such as 1958 when each man was the best player in his league but lost the MVP. It arguably happened to Sandy Koufax in 1965 and 1966 when he had seasons even better than his 1963 MVP season but didn't win the award. It happened to Barry Bonds in 1991, when after winning an MVP in 1990 voters instead gave the 1991 MVP to Terry Pendleton even though Bonds had a superior-to-Pendleton season in '91. It arguably happened to Jason Giambi in 2001.
    Last edited by RedsBaron; 03-16-2011 at 08:20 PM.
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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Win Shares show a similar edge for Musial over Marion in both 1943 and 1944, although Musial's edge in 1943 is slightly larger than his edge in 1944. In '43 Stan the Man lead Slats in Wins Shares 39 to 17 while his lead in '44 was 38 to 20. In neither season does Win Shares show Marion as even the second most valuable player on the Cardinals. In 1943 Marion ranked 8th on the team and in 1944 he ranked 6th.
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  11. #100
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    The reason the leadership issue is, well, silly in that if voters had been consistent about that issue then Marion should have won the MVP in 1943 as well. The Cardinals of that era were one of the greatest teams ever. In 1942 the Cardinals went 106-48, in 1943 they went 105-49 and in 1944 they went 105-49, winning the NL pennant each season and the World Series in 1942 and 1944. How can Marion get "extra points" for leadership in 1944 and not in the earlier seasons?
    In 1943 Musial had a BA/OBP/SLG line of .357 .425 .562 with 13 HRs and 81 RBI and a WAR of 8.9. Marion's numbers were .280 .334 .337 and 1 HR, 52 RBI and 3.5 WAR. Musial was named MVP.
    In 1944 Musial actually had a slightly higher WAR than he did in 1943, 9.1, and Marion increased his WAR as well to 4.0. Musial's BA/OBP/SLG was .347 .440 .549 with 12 HRs and 94 RBI while Marion had a line of .267 .324 .362 with 6 HRs and 63 RBI.
    Stan Musial was absolutely, positively a better player than Marty Marion both seasons and there are not any significant differences betwen Musial's edge over Marion in one season as compared to the other.
    Why then did Musial win the MVP in 1943 while Marion won the MVP in 1944? Only the voters know for sure why they voted as they did, but I would venture several possibilities. While Musial's numbers were similar in both seasons, with his WAR actually being higher in the non-MVP year, his batting average was lower in 1944 and he wasn't the batting champion as he had been in 1943, so in an era in love with batting average his 1944 season probably appeared to be poorer than '43.
    Voters have for decades tended to not give a second MVP award to a player who follows up one MVP season with another similar but perhaps slightly lesser season. This happened to Musial. It happened to Willie Mays and to Mickey Mantle numerous times, such as 1958 when each man was the best player in his league but lost the MVP. It arguably happened to Sandy Koufax in 1965 and 1966 when he had seasons even better than his 1963 MVP season but didn't win the award. It happened to Barry Bonds in 1991, when after winning an MVP in 1990 voters instead gave the 1991 MVP to Terry Pendleton even though Bonds had a superior-to-Pendleton season in '91. It arguably happened to Jason Giambi in 2001.
    Very well said RedsBaron. Excellent Post.

  12. #101
    Member cumberlandreds's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Another point about 1944 is that is was a war year. A real war and not a statistic. A good chunk of MLB players were either in Europe or the Pacific fighting a war. So I would safely say any stats from these years are probably much different than they normally would have been under peacetime conditins.
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  13. #102
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Wally Kaname Yonamine, the first American to play professional baseball in Japan after World War II and a former running back with the San Francisco 49ers, has died. He was 85.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/obituari...,6176553.story

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  14. #103
    6 months of heartbreak Bob Borkowski's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Since the last post in this thread several names have been added. Most of these (except for Rush and Metro) are pretty obscure to me but maybe there is someone out there who can additional info concerning some of these guys.

    Tom Silverio - utility outfielder for the California Angels 1970-72

    Tom McAvoy - pitched in one game for the Washington Senators in 1959

    Norman Roy - pitched for the Boston Braves in 1950

    Fred Sanford - pitched for the Browns, Senators and Yankees 1943-51.

    Charlie Metro - lackluster playing career 1940s...managed the Cubs in '62 and the Royals in '70

    Bob Rush - a 13-year pitching career from 1948 thru 1960. His best year might have been 1952 for the Cubs. He was 17-13 with a 2.70 ERA. Also pitched for the Milwaukee Braves and the White Sox.

    Bob McNamara - in 9 games for the 1939 Philadelphia A's

    Tommy Dunbar - utility outfielder for the Texas Rangers in the mid-80s.

    http://www.thedeadballera.com/passings.html
    Last edited by Bob Borkowski; 04-05-2011 at 10:59 PM.

  15. #104
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Borkowski View Post
    Fred Sanford - pitched for the Browns, Senators and Yankees 1943-51.
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  16. #105
    Member cumberlandreds's Avatar
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    Re: Some Obituaries of Recently Deceased Major Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    You hear that, Elizabeth? He's coming to join you, honey!
    I thought he had already joined her a few years ago.


    IIRC Tommy Dunbar was a highly thought of prospect for the Rangers at one time but never made it to a high level.
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