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Thread: A Reds-Dbacks-A's-Jays four-team trade to be announced.

  1. #46
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    I agree the Reds needed to get a young middle IF, but they sure paid maximum price for one.

    John Peralta and Anderson Machado might be just as good over the long haul (and I doubt anyone seriously believes Lopez will be an immediate impact guy, so this is a long haul deal) and they'd cost a whole lot less.

    Isn't starting pitching supposed to be the most precious commodity in baseball? The Reds just dealt their best pitcher over the past three (count 'em three) years for a single prospect (and not exactly an uberprospect at that). Couldn't they have forced Arizona to kick in one of their AA pitchers like Mike Gosling or Brandon Webb?

    As it stands right now, the Reds have less offense and a weaker rotation than they did a week ago. Something else had better be coming.

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  3. #47
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Earlier the Reds were going to trade Griffey, and then they traded Walker, and now have traded Dessens.

    They could not win with the pitching they had in the last two years and now the Reds have even less pitching and a weaker lineup, are they trading up or trading down?

    And just what quality pitching is out there to be had by the Reds?

    Pretty clear what direction they are heading in and Carl is still running the assylum from his wallet. :thumbdn:

  4. #48
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    One of the top players in the minors, the 19-year-old Lopez leads the pack in a Blue Jays system blessed with an
    BP last season lists Lopez as 22, "Lopez has a quick, short stroke and is rapidly developing power. They have him listed as a SS/3b

    I like this because this team could use some flexibility in the IF, a guy with potential pop and the ability to play 3 positions might cause Boone to have an anyerisum thinking about the moves he can make. Some would say that can't be all bad.

    I appreciated Elmer, for what he was... a low cost pitcher. His ERA was nice last year, but he historically doesn't K enough guys and that seems to be something we have too much of. I think they view it as selling high before they have to pay for it.

    Kinda like Steve Parris... but with a bigger payoff.

    Here's Elmers numbers as a Red

    Code:
    
    2000-2002
    
    YEAR TEAM         AGE W   L   PCT   G    GS  CG  SV  GF  IP     H    R    ER   BB   SO    ERA  RSAA
    2000 Reds         28  11   5  .688   40  16   1   1   6  147.1  170   73   70   43   85   4.28   12 
    2001 Reds         29  10  14  .417   34  34   1   0   0  205    221  103  102   56  128   4.48   -4 
    2002 Reds         30   7   8  .467   30  30   0   0   0  178    173   70   60   49   93   3.03   28 
         TOTALS           28  27  .509  104  80   2   1   6  530.1  564  246  232  148  306   3.94   36 
         LG AVERAGE       30  30  .498            3   2      530.1  530  280  257  208  404   4.36    0 
    
    YEAR TEAM          HR  H/9   BR/9  SO/9  BB/9  SO/BB SHO WP  IBB HBP BFP   BK  NW  NL
    2000 Reds          10 10.38 13.19  5.19  2.63  1.98   0   4   7   3   640  0   9   7 
    2001 Reds          32  9.70 12.20  5.62  2.46  2.29   1   4   1   1   862  1  12  12 
    2002 Reds          24  8.75 11.58  4.70  2.48  1.90   0   3   8   7   737  1  10   5 
         TOTALS        66  9.57 12.27  5.19  2.51  2.07   1  11  16  11  2239  2  31  24 
         LG AVERAGE    66  9.00 12.87  6.85  3.52  1.94   1  17  20  21  2296  2 

  5. #49
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    Here is how Rotoworld broke down the trade..

    Reds acquired infielder Felipe Lopez from the Blue Jays as part of a four-team trade.
    It's going to take a couple of years, but trading Elmer Dessens for Felipe Lopez is going to end up looking very good for Cincinnati. Expect Lopez to start at second base for the Reds. He could move to shortstop in 2004. Lopez probably won't hit for average next season, but a 20-20 season is a possibility.

  6. #50
    By the time the trade pays off Lopez will be eligible for arbitration and we all know what that will mean.

  7. #51
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    I would love to get Vasquez or Colon, but I think the price would be too steep. In general, this seems to be a buyer's market with the exception of Montreal. Everyone knows they have to unload salary, but everyone seems to be interested and it could turn into a bidding war. It would cost us Kearns or Dunn. I really would prefer not to trade either of those guys. They can take anyone else in the organization as far as I'm concerned.

    Count me down as one who absolutely hates the Dessens trade. The only possible explanation I can think of is that the powers that be within the Reds organization think Dessens will not be as effective in the coming years.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  8. #52
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    So this is the great 2003 season that we all have long awaited shaping up? ....wow Bowden, are you just addicted to making deals or are you actually trying to help Lindner.?

  9. #53
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Cash?

    At some point ineptitude becomes unforgivable. I can live with Dessens for Lopez (though it doesn't thrill me), but why in the name of D*ck W*gn*r is JimBo paying the DBacks to take his top pitcher?

    Can it be that the Reds aren't even good at being cheap?

  10. #54
    Member SirFelixCat's Avatar
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    Put me down as one who is fine with this trade, except for the cash part. If it's a "nominal" amount (not that $5 is nominal in Cincy), I like it. I'm, of course, assuming that we have another trade coming down for a very good SP. If so, then I LOVE this trade. Face it, we need someone to fill the void left by TW and Larkin's heir apparent. Give this some time and this just might turn out to be a great trade, again, provided we get a very good SP to fill the spot of Dessens. Time will tell....

  11. #55
    Member MattyHo4Life's Avatar
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    There aren't a lot of very good starting pitchers left out there that are cheap. Hey...maybe Bowden will go after Tomko instead of the Cards

  12. #56
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Yeah, and maybe he is trying to scare Larkin into early retirement and Griffey into begging for a trade to the Tokyo Giants!:hat:

  13. #57
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    Well, I will have to think that we have to wait and see how this pans out before we can really assess it. I do know that Walker and Dessens, who Bowden got for nothing, are being traded at their very maximum highest value. Dessens was a good pitcher, but could rarely go past 6 innings, ala Haynes. He was goning to make about $4M in arbitration. I do know than in BA's 2001 Propect Handbook, Lopez was rated higher than Dunn and Kearns. He has power, and it won't be a surprise to see him go .260-20-70 next season. We desperately needed a SS to replace Larkin, and now we have him. Dessens won't have lasted here much longer probably anyway. Thois is a trade for 2004 and beyond, but Lopez could produce immediately. He was rushed very quickly for a SS, and the Pokey comparisons are unfir, as Pokey never showed any power in the minors, and came fairly late to the majors.

  14. #58
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Wouldn't part of trading a guy at his maximum value involve getting a maximum return?

    And why can't we assess the basics of a trade? The Reds gave up X and they got Y back. Is that a fair return? IMO, it's at the bottom end of the fair scale.

  15. #59
    Team Tuck
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    Dessens would have made what, $3.5 mil this year with arbitration. With Walker's $3.5 mil, that's $7 mil off next year's payroll. By my calculations, that should leave us under the $60 mil budget for next year, by how many million I'm not exactly sure. Depends on how the arbitration cases shake out. But maybe the payroll room is now there to add a good starter?? We shall see.

    I liked Elmer, but I also think he hit the top of his game. Plus he had the injury last year. We landed a top prospect, 22 yr old, switch-hitting middle infielder. If this gives us the payroll room to add a starter even better than Dessens, then I'm ok with this trade.

  16. #60
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Yes, some seem to forget that trading someone when their value is high, that it requires getting something of equal to or greater value in return.

    Every year Jim tickles the fans with these lateral moves and trade downs and the fans think they are getting something……..they are shafted.


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