Why is Bowden a liar?

[Red Thunder]

In some threads I have read that Bowden can't be trusted when he opens his mouth up to that he "is one of the biggest Machiavellian liars/schemers the game has seen in recent memory".

Personally I'm happy with the way Bowden has worked for the Reds during his 10 year tenure with the club so far, but that's not the point. The thing is that I only remember two incidents, where Ron Oester and the other time Pokey Reese said in public that he lied (to them). But in these two cases their word stands against Bowden's - so I guess it's everyones own choice whom to believe more. Not to speak that both Oester and Reese were disappointed back then, as they didn't receive what they wanted from Bowden (the Reds).

If someone remembers other incidents, when Bowden obviously lied to the public, to players, reporters or anyone else, I would be happy to hear about it.

[traderumor]

Another voice of reason, Red Thunder. But, oh boy, I can't wait to hear all the stories about when Bowden lied about this or that. One I'm sure I'll see was the Larkin deal with the Mets. He has been blasted for his deceit of the NY management many times over. I think Bowden has brought some exciting players to the Reds and has went from a genius in 1999 (missed playoffs by a playoff) and the Griffey trade winter 2000. The Reds have had injuries plague them ever since, and somehow Bowden is responsible for circumstances beyond his control. He gets the players here, but he cant waive his magic wand and keep them healthy. But of course, so many think they can do his job, so the criticism continues.

[cincinnati chili]

Collins and Young didn't elaborate as much as Oester and Reese. But if you read between the lines of comments such as "you wouldn't believe some of the things that go on here..." I attribute that to Bowden.

But it goes beyond honesty to an utter lack of tact.

-The Tony Perez firing over the phone
-publicly criticizing his bosses for not increasing the payroll, and making comments like "so-and-so priced himself out of Cincinnati"
-The September 11th comment
-I'm sure folks here can come up with others

Another possible honesty thing was Accusing Kremchek of misdiagnosing injuries, when Kremchek says he told Bowden the extent of the injuries all along (Griffey in '01).

Another was his outright lying to the fans saying that the Reds put forth a good faith effort to sign Jeremy Sowers. While I AGREE with this strategy, the plan was to take a "bye" from the beginning. They KNEW Sowers wanted to go to college.

Whether it's a lack of honesty and/or judgment, the guy is not trustworthy. And this comes from someone (me) who thinks he's a good x's and o's GM.

[letsgojunior]

I made the statement, so I will respond.

Anyone who knows anything about Bowden knows he is one of the most lying, deceitful people around. He is a good baseball GM. It stops there. You asked for examples. Here are a few.

“We had a handshake deal that he wasn't going to trade me. Three months later, he traded me ... If I had been in the room with him, I would have killed him.”
- Jeff Shaw, Dodgers reliever

“They say what goes around comes around. If that be the case, then he's going to get his some day.”
- Dave Collins, ex-Reds coach

Jim Bowden is “one of the worst people in the world.”
- Ron Oester, Reds coach

One National League general manager, asked if Mr. Bowden is the most disliked man in baseball, replied, “He's in a league of his own.”

Mr. Quinn won a World Series with the 1990 Reds, but his deliberate style clashed with Mrs. Schott's notorious impatience, and their relationship deteriorated rapidly. Mr. Bowden, meanwhile, was aggressively cultivating the Reds' quirky owner as administrative assistant for scouting and player development.

Some front-office members believed he was her spy. To trap him, player development director Howie Bedell told Mr. Bowden - and no one else - he had rented a Cadillac during spring training in 1991, confident the story would get back to Mrs. Schott. Soon enough, Mr. Quinn was ordered to demand an explanation of the fake extravagance.

By August, Mr. Bowden had replaced Mr. Bedell.

“Jim had a penchant for trying to eliminate people,” Mr. Quinn says, “which is unfortunate as hell. It's almost to the point where the guy can't help himself. If he perceives someone is encroaching on his turf, he takes the (steps) to eliminate them.”

The first impressions Mr. Bowden made as general manager were of a man supremely confident and occasionally shrill. Critics referred to him as “Abner,” as in Doubleday, on the theory Mr. Bowden believed he had invented the game. Subordinates were struck by his high-decibel, highly profane tirades.

Former Reds public relations director Jon Braude says the only time he's come to blows in his life was when he struck Mr. Bowden for screaming at him in an argument over TV coverage. About the same time, Mr. Bowden fired minor-league field coordinator Jim Tracy in a loud and public scene after they failed to reach contract terms.

“He made a great deal with Seattle, but I don't think you have to talk about it,” Mr. Jocketty says. “I would hope to never put another GM in a bad light, and I think that may have happened in that case.”

“I've never been a part of an organization where there was less harmony, less encouragement, (people) not supporting one another, never knowing what the true purpose was,” he says. “You've got to understand the importance of chemistry, and I don't think he does.”

This is all from the Cincinnati Enquirer about a year ago.

[cincinnati chili]

Let's go junior:

Great stuff. Sooner or later people will realize that this isn't just a skilled GM with a few flaws, but a skilled GM who's also a borderline sociopath.

Getting back to the honesty issue, am I correct that Bowden was fired from one of his early baseball jobs (maybe w/the Yankees) after being accused of stealing computer scouting files? I could have sworn I heard this reported.

[letsgojunior]

The computer file stealing is somewhere in here, I don't have time to read it.

This article is by our friend Sullivan, but it is damn hard to refute it when almost the entire thing is direct quotes.

http://reds.enquirer.com/2001/04/01/...s_deals_-.html

[letsgojunior]

We should really call this thread "liar liar leather pants on fire"

[Red Thunder]

Thanks for the responses so far. And for letting me know, that I know nothing about JimBo, lgj .

Indeed you and cincinnati chili delivered a lot of examples, why Bowden has a reputation as a bad handler of people and worse. But from your examples, actually only one is a real proof that he lied on a specific occasion (the Jeff Shaw handshake agreement). The others have not much if anything to do with lying but nonetheless are good examples, that you might better take his words with a grain of salt.

Somehow amazing that he is already the Reds GM for 10 seasons. Seems like he knows with whom he has to deal in a honorable fashion to keep his job in Cincinnati.

[letsgojunior]

I wasn't directing that at you by any means -- I was actually referring to some of my friends who have had dealings with people who have had direct dealings with Bowden. All left with a slimy feeling.

PS - Honorable is not a word I would use. After accusing our team medical director of a huge miscue and comparing Don Fehr to a Kamakazi pilot, the only reason he is still here is because he has a guaranteed contract, and because Lindner hates to eat contracts.

[MikeS21]

OK, JimBo gets canned/quits (tak your pick).

Who replaces him?

My fear is that it will be a repeat of the Bob Boone hiring - the lowest bidder gets the job. We needed Lou Pinella and ended up with Bob Boone. Well, we need a "Lou Pinella"-type as GM - not a "Bob Boone" type.

Who do you realistically get to replace Bowden?

[Red Thunder]

Originally posted by letsgojunior
... the only reason he is still here is because he has a guaranteed contract, and because Lindner hates to eat contracts.

Currently this wouldn't surprise me. How about firing JimBo and making Juan Castro GM? This might benefit the Reds in two areas while they would only have to eat up one contract

I still think that Bowden is a very good fit for the Reds and I wish myself for christmas, that he reduces his controversial (or just plainly bad) actions in the future, when dealing with employees and baseball people.

[westofyou]

Why is Bowden a liar?

Because his pants are on fire.

What else can explain the leather trousers?

[J "Cooper"]

It also has to hurt to hear your name is on the table for a trade. Bowden does a terrible job of keeping this kind of stuff quiet and it has to begin to affect people.

My pick for the next GM would be --Brad Kullman...did i get his name right? He's the young GM assisstant who has a leaning towards sabermetrics. A young guy would give the club a nice PR move. We need some fresh ideas and someone who has a philosophy about how to run a club.

[cincinnati chili]

Originally posted by J "Cooper"
It also has to hurt to hear your name is on the table for a trade. Bowden does a terrible job of keeping this kind of stuff quiet and it has to begin to affect people.

My pick for the next GM would be --Brad Kullman...did i get his name right? He's the young GM assisstant who has a leaning towards sabermetrics. A young guy would give the club a nice PR move. We need some fresh ideas and someone who has a philosophy about how to run a club.

What do you know about Kullman's people skills? I too have heard his name mentioned by Neyer as a future GM. And hey, Neyer was correct about Theo. He called that when the guy was 25.

I agree with others on this thread who say we should be careful what we wish for. I was certain the Schott regime was as bad as it could get. Lindner's regime has its problems as well.

[M2]

Coop, nifty idea on Kullman.

As for JimBo's trousers, maybe he should try asbestos instead of leather.