On the Cleveland forum, they are already making proposals (Traber etc.) for Lopez. They like him a lot and think the Reds stole him for a 31 year old, 6 inning pitcher. I agree the trade in of itself is good but it weakens the 2003 team unless another move is made. I have learned to have my doubts, particularly when it comes to Bowden addressing starting pitching.
I think it is a good trade. For the last few weeks everyone cried that the Reds were not doing anything. Nobody wanted Dunn, Kearns, Casey, Jr., or Graves traded.
Well folks in order to do something, we have to trade someone.
We have traded players that can be REPLACED. Elmer had a good ERA, but how many games did he win?
Someone posted trading Dessens would mean we will loose 90 games next year if he is not replaced. Not sure that is going to happen.
The Reds are finally making strides to improve. Lets see what happens tomorrow, because JimBo is itching to pull the trigger again.
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Nice to hear from Stormy again. Were you waiting for the Reds to actually make a positive move before you came back? I don't blame you.
Love this trade...
I've been hoping for Lopez ever since I read last seasont that Ricciardi actually believes Woodward is their shortstop. As has been mentioned, Dessens was traded at peak value.
Baseball America 2001:
#2. Felipe Lopez. A Puerto Rican native, Lopez moved to Florida with his father in 1990. He survived the deaths of his mother and stepmother, as well as an abusive relationship with his father, to become one of the state's top prospects. He signed too late in 1998 to make an immediate impact but has risen quickly through the system. Only Vernon Wells has better tools among Jays prospects -- and Lopez has five-tool ability. He has range to spare, a plus arm and true shortstop actions. He has average power and excellent speed, though it hasn't translated into high stolen-base totals yet. Lopez jumped over high Class A in 2000, which helps explain his mediocre numbers and inability to make consistent contact. Club officials have questioned his concentration, saying he took bad at-bats to the field with him. He hasn't learned the nuances of baserunning yet. Lopez should return to Double-A in 2001. The Blue Jays wouldn't have rushed him if they didn't think it was good for him.
John Benson's scouting report 2001-2002:
#2. Felipe Lopez. Lopez, 20, was the Blue Jays' first round draft pick in 1998. The 6'0", 175 switch-hitter was challenged with a daunting two-level jump to the Double-A Southern League, where he was one of that league's youngest regulars. He struggled mightily with the bat against older, more advanced pitchers, largely due to poor plate discipline. If he can improve in that area and get ahead in the count more often, his already impressive extra-base pop for a middle infielder could explode. He could evolve into a .300ish hitter with 25 homer power. His foot speed is well above average, but Lopez is quite raw with regard with regard to baserunning technique. He needs to study pitchers' deliveries and learn to get better jumps, and that should happen with experience. Defensively, Lopez is state-of-the-art. He covers a lot of ground because of his speed and extraordinary first-step quickness, and he has well above average arm strength. Southern league managers recognized him as the best defensive shortstop prospect in the circuit. Even before the Jays began to deal from their minor league infield strength last season, there was no doubt that Lopez was the man they had in mind to be their next starting shortstop. He's a year away, and could rank in the upper half of the strong AL shortstop crop with the expected offensive development.
John Benson 2001:
Scouting: An excellent defensive infielder who is still learning, Lopez has shown hints that he will develop into a power hitter with great speed and a good batting eye. He doesn't yet take walks at the pace that he should but he has shown a willlingness to learn and will become more selective as he learns more about how pitchers use the strike zone. Defensively he has good range and hands. The Blue Jays' first round pick a couple years ago, he is an above average prospect.
Imagine if Edwin Encarnacion keeps developing. Add him to Lopes and Dunn and you have a pretty decent infield!
(guess I've gotta make a first post sometime. This won't be earth-shaking, but I thought I'd weigh in)
Dessens gave the Reds value no one expected. He developed into a solid 3 or 4 starter and would have helped the team. However, I don't really see him as someone who will make a major difference in where the Reds finish. Odds are that he won't replicate last year's ERA, and even though I liked having him around, I doubt he'll ever develop into a consistent 15-game winner.
With the number of players the Reds have arbitration-eligible some have to go. Otherwise the expected payroll increase will be mostly taken up by keeping what the team has instead of improving. Dessens seems to me to be one of the most likely to get a big arbitration award that he may not play up to. I believe he was as good a choice as any to go.
And I really like Lopez. Tremendous upside. Speed. Possible moderate power. 22 years old. This could be a trade that we look back on a decade from now as a steal. Even if Lopez doesn't pan out, I'll give Bowden a thumbs up on this one.
I agree with you completely...and welcome to the fold. It's one heck of a good group we have around here. Enjoy your stay!Originally posted by tixe
(guess I've gotta make a first post sometime. This won't be earth-shaking, but I thought I'd weigh in)
Dessens gave the Reds value no one expected. He developed into a solid 3 or 4 starter and would have helped the team. However, I don't really see him as someone who will make a major difference in where the Reds finish. Odds are that he won't replicate last year's ERA, and even though I liked having him around, I doubt he'll ever develop into a consistent 15-game winner.
With the number of players the Reds have arbitration-eligible some have to go. Otherwise the expected payroll increase will be mostly taken up by keeping what the team has instead of improving. Dessens seems to me to be one of the most likely to get a big arbitration award that he may not play up to. I believe he was as good a choice as any to go.
And I really like Lopez. Tremendous upside. Speed. Possible moderate power. 22 years old. This could be a trade that we look back on a decade from now as a steal. Even if Lopez doesn't pan out, I'll give Bowden a thumbs up on this one.
I love this trade - Dessens was a good 6 inning pitcher, but man that burns up a bullpen real quick. And what really did the Reds lose? 7 wins, come on.
So, am I sad to lose Dessens - hell yea! But the Reds got their SS of the future, and they got some speed.
On another note, reading about Lopez and his lack of baserunning skills, Boone is the worst manager for this. The Reds have come out of the last two Spring Trainings horrible on the bases, and now we have the potential for worse. Good God in heaven, the GAB is gonna be OOOOhhhhhing and AAAAAhhhhing this year!!
"I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of bubble gum."
- - Rowdy Roddy Piper
"It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I am not a big man"
- - Fletch
Yes, but he makes up for it with his excellent across the board managerial skills, particularly his knack for having a set and consistent lineup!Originally posted by Puffy
On another note, reading about Lopez and his lack of baserunning skills, Boone is the worst manager for this. The Reds have come out of the last two Spring Trainings horrible on the bases, and now we have the potential for worse. Good God in heaven, the GAB is gonna be OOOOhhhhhing and AAAAAhhhhing this year!!
Here's an interesting tidbit on the deal from Jason Stark:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark...n/1477492.html
BossAt one point or another, the A's had potential deals cooked up with the Giants, Braves, Expos, Blue Jays and Reds that all ended with Durazo winding up in the 510 area code. But finally, on Sunday, the pieces came together.
"We knew a long time ago that (Arizona GM) Joe (Garagiola Jr.) and I didn't have a direct match," Beane said. "So a couple of weeks ago, I said, 'Listen, Joe, give me a list of (pitchers) I can go out and get. And I'll see if I can get them.'"
Beane tried, at various junctures, to trade for Russ Ortiz, Javier Vazquez, Damian Moss and Dessens. He had a four-way deal centering around Dessens that was all but done Friday -- until the Diamondbacks decided they needed some time to see if they could deal for Vazquez on their own.
I love and hate this trade. From a personal standpoint, Dessens was one of my favorites..a guy everyone gave up on who got a final chance and made the most of it - and he was a pretty darn good pitcher...for 6 innings. I love this trade because he was exactly that - a 6 inning pitcher. Reitsma gives you that, is younger and cheaper and has more upside. So, I love the trade from a baseball standpoint. Plus, it re-injects Chris into the starting rotation plans, at least for the moment. I'll really love this trade if Bowden gets us a decent starter to absolutely replace Dessens. Lopez gives us a terrific prospect where we needed one most and puts to rest the Boone to shortstop speculation, at least as a permanent option. I am not convinced this is good for 2003, though. Lopez is a project worth patience, however, and there is still room for Brandon to get plenty of at bats and prove himself out, one way or another.
Dessens will do well with the Snakes, for those who don't think he'll win 15 games, in Arizona he will. They just became a favorite to regain the west. In September when he has another solid season, and Lopez has had his struggles, especially if he spends significant time in the majors, there will be posters who decry this trade (same ones lauding it now probably) but by 2004 and 2005 this will look like one of Bowden's best deals yet.
Why this trade will be a bust for the Reds:
- Because the Reds have once again believed the hype on a toolsy player, who has never hit anywhere (until 173 at bats in AAA at the end of last year). Sure, he's been young for his leauges, but this is a guy who didn't even hit well in A ball two years ago. I agree that this was a good time to trade Dessens, but why not get something PROVEN in return, in addition to a lottery ticket.
-Because the REDS COULD HAVE HAD DURAZO, a proven slugging machine instead. Why accomodate the A's in a four-way trade? Why not go to the D'backs directly and give them Dessens for Durazo? Find a shortstop later.
I hope I'm wrong, but my guess is that five years from now Felipe "Alex Gonzalez without the glove" Lopez is out of baseball, and Durazo has played on 3 or 4 all star teams.
Last edited by cincinnati chili; 12-16-2002 at 06:27 AM.
Stick to your guns.
I think it's a good trade. How many 21/22 year old shortstops put up an OPS of .850 in triple A ball? Keep in mind he did it over 500 at bats. Not too many.
1. He's young so he has time to develop.
2. The International League is a tough place to hit.
3. His walk rates aren't too bad. They aren't great, but at least there is something to build on. Above 10 % in triple A.
If you take the composite of his ML stats and his triple A stats you come up with .330 OBP and a 440 SLG. I think it's possible that Lopez could have that kind of season. Especially when you factor in how most players take a step forward when they turn 23.
My fear is there are things we don't know.
Is he driven to succeed?
Is he really 22?
What is his defense like?
His bat is good for a SS/2nd.
My thoughts exactly. I know the team needed a player like Lopez, but it traded the most valuable commodity in baseball to get a guy who is a firm maybe.I agree that this was a good time to trade Dessens, but why not get something PROVEN in return, in addition to a lottery ticket.
The Reds aren't flush with starting pitchers. When they trade one, the return should be outstanding. IMO, they undersold Dessens.
I think you'll see a slew of deals after the Rule 5 draft today.
Starting pitchers are the most valuable trading commodity in baseball. That is, before you find yourself without a SS.
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