Turn Off Ads?
Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 567891011 LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 159

Thread: Introducing the New 2B of the Reds: Aaron Boone

  1. #121
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Charlotte, Nc
    Posts
    15,123
    Ozzie's three best years were in 85, 86, and 87.

    In those years, the league averages in OBP and SLG were:
    85-327/386
    86-330/392
    87-341/423

    Tejada's three best years have been 00, 01, and 02.

    In those years, the league averages in OBP and SLG were:
    00-342/435
    01-329/421
    02-337/432

    If you average those out, there's virtually no difference in OBP and a 8.2% increase in SLG.

    If you adjust Ozzie's numbers for today, you get:

    30, 1985-.355/.364 719
    31, 1986-.376/.336 712
    32, 1987-.392/.386 778
    three year average 374/362 736

    vs Tejada
    24, 2000-.349/.479 828
    25, 2001-.326/476 801
    26, 2002-.354/508 861
    three year average 343/488 831

    OK, now something else to consider is that Ozzie's best years were during what everyone and their mother considers a player's "prime", while Tejada hasn't hit his yet.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #122
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    860
    Originally posted by Raisor
    OK, now something else to consider is that Ozzie's best years were during what everyone and their mother considers a player's "prime", while Tejada hasn't hit his yet.
    Well that might depend on whether his name really is Migel Tejada.

    The next wave of instant aging is upon us:

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...7padnotes.html

  4. #123
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Hamiltucky
    Posts
    1,403
    Moving Boone to 2b is a no brainer IMO.

    I have been advocating this for the longest time, at least since November 30, and probably earlier than that.

    Why is it that a lot of you advocate moving Boone to SS, but are not in favor of him moving to 2b, a less demanding position?

    If Boone stays at 3b, what does the rest of the infield look like?

    - Lopez ss/2b, Larkin 2b/ss, Casey?

    In my opinion this could be a horrible offensive infield. With Lopez being so young and Larkin coming off a horrible season, combined with LaRue, this could be one of the worst hitting lineups in baseball even if you have Griffey, Dunn and Kearns. With Lopez, Larkin and LaRue, you could have three automatic outs. Can that kind of lineup be successful, even with great defense?

    In regards to offense verses defense, I prefer the best combination of both, but one can make up for the other to a point. Larson's offense and price tag make up for his defense IMO.

  5. #124
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,281
    I think the Tejada in 2002 probably saw pitching comparable to Ozzie. I'll never be able to prove that, but it's my theory.
    I'll disprove it for you

    1984 National League ERA 3.59
    1985 National League ERA 3.59
    1986 National League ERA 3.72

    2000 American League ERA 4.91
    2001 American League ERA 4.47
    2002 American League ERA 4.46


    not even close. Tejada gets to feast on pitcher that wouldn't eve make the show in the mid '80's. Rick Helling wouldn't have kept a job as a mop-up guy.

    Raisor, I still say they are different animals. Ozzie is a leadoff hitter, and Tejada is the rbi guy in a position that still primarily is weak offensively. If they are on the same team at the same time, Tejada changes position. Ozzies defense combined with his ability to get on base, plus steal bases is IMO more valuable. It doesn't mean Tejada isn't a good player. It means he is more replaceable IMO.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  6. #125
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Charlotte, Nc
    Posts
    15,123
    Originally posted by TRF

    Raisor, I still say they are different animals. Ozzie is a leadoff hitter, and Tejada is the rbi guy in a position that still primarily is weak offensively. If they are on the same team at the same time, Tejada changes position. Ozzies defense combined with his ability to get on base, plus steal bases is IMO more valuable. It doesn't mean Tejada isn't a good player. It means he is more replaceable IMO.
    If I had to choose between a leadoff hitter (and wasn't it Vince Coleman leading off for the Cards during most of that time?) and a middle of the order guy, and they play the same position (especially if it's shortstop or second) then I take the guy that would hit in the middle of the lineup.

    Having a shortstop that hits like a 1B or an OFer is an incredible advantage.

    PSR

  7. #126
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Charlotte, Nc
    Posts
    15,123
    Originally posted by TRF
    I'll disprove it for you

    1984 National League ERA 3.59
    1985 National League ERA 3.59
    1986 National League ERA 3.72

    2000 American League ERA 4.91
    2001 American League ERA 4.47
    2002 American League ERA 4.46


    not even close. Tejada gets to feast on pitcher that wouldn't eve make the show in the mid '80's. Rick Helling wouldn't have kept a job as a mop-up guy.

    But are the ERA's lower then because the pitchers were better, or are the ERA's higher now because the HITTERS are better now?

  8. #127
    Puffy's Daddy Red Leader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Centerville, OH
    Posts
    20,422
    Originally posted by Raisor
    But are the ERA's lower then because the pitchers were better, or are the ERA's higher now because the HITTERS are better now?
    I think the pitchers were better then because everyone played low OPS players like Ozzie Smith, et al, instead of having OPS monsters like Tejada in their lineups because those types of "super athletes" weren't introduced yet. Either you were quick and played good defense, or you were a hulk and hit the ball hard, not both like today.
    'When I'm not longer rapping, I want to open up an ice cream parlor and call myself Scoop Dogg.'
    -Snoop on his retirement

    Your Mom is happy.

  9. #128
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,281
    It was Coleman. you are right. But look at teams with tons of power, bad defense and no speed historically. Now in the last 20 years tell me how many of them won the world series. I think the last one was 1989.

    My point is yes these Billy Beane/Bill James OPS teams can give you a winning season, even take you to the playoffs.

    but pitching and defense win it all.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  10. #129
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Denver
    Posts
    10,791
    Originally posted by TRF
    I'll disprove it for you

    1984 National League ERA 3.59
    1985 National League ERA 3.59
    1986 National League ERA 3.72

    2000 American League ERA 4.91
    2001 American League ERA 4.47
    2002 American League ERA 4.46

    Sorry. But this proves diddly squat. It shows that more runs are being scored, but doesn't show whether it's because of:

    1) external factors (small ballparks, juiced balls, umpires taking away the strike zone from pitchers not named Glavine)
    2) the pitchers are worse
    3) the hitters are better

    You are pretty certain it's all #2. I think there's more to #3 than most people think. Watch espn classic sometime when they show games from the 70s and 80s, and pay attention to the size of the hitters. Nobody is weight training. MOre guys are out of shape. Few of the hitters are working the count. And not all the pitchers are as great as you remember.
    Last edited by cincinnati chili; 01-08-2003 at 04:22 PM.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  11. #130
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Denver
    Posts
    10,791
    Originally posted by Raisor
    OK, now something else to consider is that Ozzie's best years were during what everyone and their mother considers a player's "prime", while Tejada hasn't hit his yet.
    So am I the only one who thinks Tejada may have already hit his prime?

    I know he's 26, but he had a lot of hits fall in last year. If he keeps up the free swinging, pitchers have got to make adjustments eventually.

    I seriously doubt he'll break 200 hits ever again.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  12. #131
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,281
    I think the pitchers were better then because everyone played low OPS players like Ozzie Smith, et al, instead of having OPS monsters like Tejada in their lineups because those types of "super athletes" weren't introduced yet. Either you were quick and played good defense, or you were a hulk and hit the ball hard, not both like today.
    And then came Eric Davis...


    You don't have both today. except for ARod. With the diluted pitching of today how would a guy like Pedro Guerrero hit. He OPS'd .999 in 1985 against much better pitching league wide.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  13. #132
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,281
    No I'm convinced more jobs means a dilution of talent. It means guys pitching that wouldn't have jobs at the major league level. It also means that while facing AZ my teams has to see Johnson and Schilling, but it also got a chance to face 3 scrubs starting.

    And today it means Joey Hamilton can still get a job. I don't think the pitchers from the '80's are better athletes or better pitchers individually but over all, yeah. BTW Wrigley was still Wrigley in the '80's too. Not every park was the Astrodome.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  14. #133
    Puffy's Daddy Red Leader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Centerville, OH
    Posts
    20,422
    Originally posted by TRF
    And then came Eric Davis...


    You don't have both today. except for ARod. With the diluted pitching of today how would a guy like Pedro Guerrero hit. He OPS'd .999 in 1985 against much better pitching league wide.
    I agree with you on Eric Davis, but what do you mean you don't have both today? I'm talking about all hitters not just SS, but if you want to look at SS, what about Jeter, Tejada, Nomar, A-Rod, heck even Edgar Renteria is more of a slugger than the Wizard was and still has decent speed and quickness. The guys I'm talking about are: Vlad, Bobby Abreu, Magglio Ordonez.....even Adam Dunn to some extent, guys that draw walks, steal bases, and hit the ball REAL hard.
    'When I'm not longer rapping, I want to open up an ice cream parlor and call myself Scoop Dogg.'
    -Snoop on his retirement

    Your Mom is happy.

  15. #134
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Charlotte, Nc
    Posts
    15,123
    Originally posted by TRF
    No I'm convinced more jobs means a dilution of talent. It means guys pitching that wouldn't have jobs at the major league level. .
    But don't forget, the talent pool is also getting bigger, not only here in the states, but the entire world.

    PSR

  16. #135
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,309
    With the diluted pitching of today how would a guy like Pedro Guerrero hit. He OPS'd .999 in 1985 against much better pitching league wide.
    Pedro OPS .283 above the league average for the eighth best number from 1980-1990

    Add the seasons from 1991-2002 and he slides from 9th best to 53rd.

    Of course for his career his OPS was only .133 above average, so that .999 season was kind of a fluke.

    Here's a list of the guys with 3000 ab's who had OPS's .100 over the league average from 1980-1990

    Code:
    CAREER
    1980-1990
    OPS >= .100 vs. the league average
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Mike Schmidt               .925     .207   
    2    George Brett               .912     .186   
    3    Wade Boggs                 .908     .181   
    4    Will Clark                 .883     .162   
    5    Jack Clark                 .880     .162   
    6    Darryl Strawberry          .878     .159   
    7    Eddie Murray               .877     .151   
    8    Pedro Guerrero             .875     .157   
    9    Dwight Evans               .871     .145   
    10   Don Mattingly              .867     .139   
    11   Kent Hrbek                 .862     .134   
    12   Alvin Davis                .859     .131   
    13   Rickey Henderson           .854     .129   
    14   Dave Winfield              .845     .118   
    15   Dale Murphy                .842     .124   
    16   Robin Yount                .838     .112   
    17   Barry Bonds                .837     .116   
    18   Andre Dawson               .835     .117   
    19   Leon Durham                .831     .111   
    20   Bob Horner                 .828     .113   
    21   Tim Raines                 .828     .110   
    22   Kirk Gibson                .825     .100   
    23   Keith Hernandez            .820     .102   
    24   Tony Gwynn                 .819     .100   
    

    and here is teh same list for 1991-2002 But we'll push it to .135 above to account for expansion, new parks, bad pitching ect... (whatever is your flavor)

    Code:
    CAREER
    1991-2002
    OPS >= .135 vs. the league average
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Barry Bonds               1.104     .345   
    2    Mark McGwire              1.043     .278   
    3    Todd Helton               1.032     .252   
    4    Manny Ramirez             1.010     .233   
    5    Frank Thomas              1.000     .237   
    6    Larry Walker               .994     .236   
    7    Brian Giles                .986     .205   
    8    Jim Thome                  .982     .209   
    9    Edgar Martinez             .974     .209   
    10   Vladimir Guerrero          .973     .195   
    11   Jason Giambi               .968     .191   
    12   Jeff Bagwell               .965     .205   
    13   Ken Griffey Jr.            .965     .199   
    14   Mike Piazza                .964     .194   
    15   Alex Rodriguez             .958     .182   
    16   Gary Sheffield             .955     .192   
    17   Chipper Jones              .949     .175   
    18   Albert Belle               .945     .180   
    19   Carlos Delgado             .943     .166   
    20   Nomar Garciaparra          .937     .162   
    21   Bobby Abreu                .931     .152   
    22   Rafael Palmeiro            .926     .163   
    23   Sammy Sosa                 .918     .152   
    24   Juan Gonzalez              .912     .149   
    25   Mo Vaughn                  .910     .140   
    26   Ellis Burks                .902     .143   
    


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25