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Thread: Why is Bowden a liar?

  1. #46
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    There was an excellent article on Bowden in the Columbus Dispatch last year, just prior to the 2002 season. I wish I had saved it.

    In this article alot of what you all are saying was listed. But it also did list some of the positive contributions he has also done (which so many who hate him seem to want to omit ).

    Bowden readily acknowledged that when it comes to the GM job, that he is an S.O.B. and a tough negotiator. I loved the quote where he said... "If someone's blood has to be split, it's better that it's the other guys".

    And some of the remarks that some of you post in this thread, attributed to Bowden, weren't "lies" technically speaking... just stupid, incensitive remarks.

    And I would never take the words of anything Pokey, DY, or Oester says as reliable, and "gospel".

    And I'd say the same thing about sportswriter Sullivan. Since his relocation, he has shown he still has an "axe to grind"

    And good point TeamTuck. Shaw sure is anxious to want to come back to this organization.

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  3. #47
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    More Bowden's lies:

    That he wanted Larkin to finish his career in Cincy, while he was aggressively trying to dump him.

    That he would never trade Jr.

    The Cards GM accused him of lying about Brantley's health, in the Dimitri trade.

    Bowden has claimed to have offered several players very specific deals in the press, and then the players say those deals were never made... it happens too often to not be fishy.

    That we would be competitive in 2003

  4. #48
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    Bowden has claimed to have offered several players very specific deals in the press, and then the players say those deals were never made... it happens too often to not be fishy.
    Casey, Reese deny $10 million demands
    By Tony Jackson, Post staff reporter
    Reds first baseman Sean Casey and second baseman Pokey Reese disputed a published report that they were seeking contract extensions that would pay them in the neighborhood of $10 million annually.

    The report appeared in this week's issue of USA Today Baseball Weekly. Although a source wasn't named, both Casey and Reese were reasonably sure the statement had come from Reds general manager Jim Bowden.

    ''It's a blatant lie,'' Casey said. ''I would think he would try not to make this a whole media thing, but whatever. It's just absurd. I never asked for $10 million. That's why you can't believe what you read until you know the full story.''

    Casey will earn $3 million this season after winning in arbitration. Reese will earn $3.2 million after agreeing in spring training to that figure. Bowden would like to sign both players, along with Aaron Boone, Danny Graves and Dmitri Young, to long-term deals, but the negotiations have stalled.
    ''That is so false,'' Reese said. ''Ten million? Come on. That's a bunch of bull.''

    That he would never trade Jr.
    Griffey doesn't have a no-trade clause in his contract. As far as Bowden is concerned, he doesn't need one.
    “He has an "untouchable' clause with me,” Bowden said. “That's stronger than a no-trade clause.”

  5. #49
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Thanks lgj,

    I also remember Bowden saying he offered Dimitri X dollars for a certain number of years, and then Dimitri saying the offer was never made.

    I seriously think that if Bowden knows he can't resign a player, he goes out of his way to make that player look greedy/disloyal.

    Kent Mercker said he'd take less to come back to Cincy, and then when he signed elsewhere, Bowden proclaimed him a hypocrite.
    For some reason, Bowden thinks players will take 80-90% less for the privillege of being a Red.

    Actually, I think part of the reason that Bowden's trade bounty has be declining is because now nobody trusts him. Remember that story about the failed JR to Padres. After the Padres GM found out that the Reds offered Nevin a big bonus to waive the no trade clause, he said he became suspicious and was relieved the trade did not go through.

    I think some/most GMs assume that if Bowden is shopping a guy, something is wrong with that player. Thus, they don't offer much to Bowden.

  6. #50
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Sure Bowden said he wanted Larkin to finish his career in Cincy. He didn't lie when he said that.

    So what is he suppose to do when Lark, and his agent, then present them with a salary demand that they knew would handcuff this team financially?

    Bu then trying to trade Larkin does not make him out to have lied. He WANTED him to stay and finish his career; but saw it would not be financially feasible to this organization.

    Bowden may be a cad at times, but lets not exaggerate/twist some of the circumstances. especially when John Allen had his hands heavily involved in this partivular scenario. Remember the trip to Detroit?

  7. #51
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    WEll, Bowden did tell the NY GM that there was that "atmosphere of negativity" that made Bowden confident Larkin would accept the trade.

    Bowden did a lot to create that atmosphere of negatively. Although, I agree Allen was deep into it also.

    If Bowden wanted to Larkin to finish his career as a Red, he could've gotten Uncle Carl involved and signed him before the season began.. Remember, after Jr was signed, Bowden said that LArkin was next to get signed.

    Bowden preferred to dump Larkin. Obviously, Carl had no problem keeping Larkin... IF Bowden wanted to keep Larkin, he could've gone straight to Carl and gotten the deal done.

    Let me ask you this.. Bowden offered Kevin Brown 1 million/year for 7 years. Do you consider it to be truthful if Bowden said he pursued Kevin Brown? I mean, that is a joke offer that had no chance of working.

    It's like me writing Pamela Anderson a fan letter, and then claiming we had some kind of romance.

    Bowden might've "tried to keep Larkin here" in such a matter, but Bowden was not sincere. It was a lie to the fans. Bowden never passed up a chance to say he wanted Larkin to finish his career here, but when it came time to do the work, he tried a lot harder to get rid of him.

  8. #52
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    From the Dispatch 7/2000

    The day's ending was far happier than its beginning. Both Larkin and New York Mets general manager Steve Phillips said Bowden had misled the Mets about Larkin's insistence on receiving a contract extension to accept the trade.

    "We went into this thing saying I would accept a trade if the parameters were correct, if it was a multiyear deal,'' Larkin said. "All parties knew that. Or at least that's what we told Jim. He obviously didn't relay that to the Mets.

    Phillips told the same story.

    "It seems there was a misunderstanding from my discussions with Eric (Goldschmidt) and Jim,'' Phillips said. "They were not on the same page with what was going to happen with his contract.''


    Reached last night for his reaction to Larkin's contract extension, Phillips said, "Astonishment, only because Jim Bowden told me they were not going to sign him. I guess we helped Barry Larkin get a contract.''

    And, what REDREAD was alluding to

    Larkin said that Bowden failed to tell the Mets in advance about his conditions for approving the trade. Larkin wanted a multiyear extension, but the Mets were only interested in him as a stopgap for this season with shortstop Rey Ordonez sidelined by a broken arm.

    "Yeah, I'm disappointed," Mets general manager Steve Phillips. "But at this point, we've got to move forward."

    Larkin would have liked New York -- he named his oldest daughter Brielle D'Shea, after the Mets' stadium -- but made it clear he wouldn't go there for only a half-season.

    "This whole time, we went into this thing saying that I would accept a trade if the parameters were correct -- if it was a multiyear deal," Larkin said. "All the parties knew that -- at least, that's what we told Jim. But he obviously didn't relay that to the Mets. I guess they didn't realize what was going on with this entire thing."

    Larkin's relationship with Bowden was strained by the developments of the last few weeks. Phillips confirmed that the Mets agreed to talk to Larkin on the assumption he would accept a trade for this season only.

    New York offered to let Larkin finish the season with the Mets, then pay him a bonus if he didn't get a contract extension within 10 days after the World Series. Agent Eric Goldschmidt told them that Larkin wanted a multiyear extension to move -- the same thing he told Bowden.

    "I called Jim (on Friday) and said, 'Where is Barry on this?"' Phillips said. "Jim told me, 'Oh, don't worry, he'll accept the deal.' Jim said he might be talking a little bit, but he was convinced he would want to get out of the negativity in Cincinnati.

    "It seems there was a misunderstanding. From my discussions with Eric and Jim, they were not on the same page with what was going to happen with his contract."

    Bowden said he didn't tell the Mets about Larkin's contract conditions because he didn't learn about them until Thursday, after New York agreed to the tentative deal.

    "That's correct because we were not told until after the deal was consummated," Bowden said.

    Phillips said the Mets weren't interested in offering a long-term deal because it would limit their options in the offseason. Ordonez has three years left on a $19 million contract he signed in January, and Seattle shortstop Alex Rodriguez might be a free agent.

    "It's going to be an appealing free-agent class out there and we didn't want to make all the decisions today, not knowing what the future is going to be like," Phillips said.


    Last edited by letsgojunior; 12-30-2002 at 04:45 PM.

  9. #53
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    I read this article again and find it mind-boggling that between Alllen, Larkin's agent, Bowden and Larkin himself, Bowden is being labeled the sleeze.....unbelieveable.

    Here is just another circumstance where a GM tries to give a player whatever he wants, and the player and the agent are jerks.

    I really cannot wait until ST 2004 of only to know that Barry Larkin will NOT be there.
    "Is there a problem officers?"

  10. #54
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    Originally posted by red-in-la
    I read this article again and find it mind-boggling that between Alllen, Larkin's agent, Bowden and Larkin himself, Bowden is being labeled the sleeze.....unbelieveable.
    Look, this constant character assassination of Larkin is getting old and it's completely uncalled for. You don't like the fact that he's a Red and that's fine, but quit attacking his character.

    Larkin is a stand-up guy and a class act. This "sleeze" (sic) has made the days of countless sick and dying kids, who's only wish has been to meet him. He's not only simply visited them, he's literally spent hours with them and has also taken other Reds players to meet these unfortunate kids. And let's not forget the millions of dollars that he has raised for underpriveleged children and the done countless things he's for the city of Cincinnati. For example, purchasing over 100 air conditioners during a heat wave so that the poor could at least have a little comfort. The list goes on and on for this guy. What have those of you that have been attacking him done?

    Quite honestly, these comments say a lot more about the Larkin attackers, than they do him.

  11. #55
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Bowden preferred to dump Larkin. Obviously, Carl had no problem keeping Larkin... IF Bowden wanted to keep Larkin, he could've gone straight to Carl and gotten the deal done.

    Lindner had no problem keeping Larkin? He controls the money. Why didn't he "step up" then from the very onset,sign him, and put an end to all the friction the situation was creating? How can you say that if Bowden wanted to keep Larkin he could've gone straight to Carl and gotten the deal done?

    Bowden's never been able to do it any other time whenever he's needed the $$$'s to get a player. Lindner always says "It's not in the budget".

    It wasn't until Lindner saw the outrage of the local fans that he finally stepped up and "caved" to Lark's demands.

  12. #56
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Interesting review, and quite a long list on Mr. Bowden. Can anyone readily name me ten professionals with as long of a list or longer?

  13. #57
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    I find it interesting LF, that you made no comment about those who assail Bowden's character constantly. I will give you your point. I have tried to stay away from getting on Larkin's case.....but this darned article was reposted and the apparent attempt was to make Bowden out to be the bad guy.

    I will attempt to stay off Barry's case until October of 2003...gulp!
    "Is there a problem officers?"

  14. #58
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    R-I-L, if you consider character assassination merely posting links of known incidents of bad behavoir in response to a question posed to me, well I don't know what to say.

    The following people have openly ripped Bowden: Ron Oester, Sean Casey, Dmitri Young, Pokey Reese, Dave Collins, Steve Phillips, Barry Larkin, Bob Quinn, Walt Jocketty, Jeff Shaw, Scott Williamson, Brian Goldberg, Howard Lincoln, Dan Evans. Quinn accused Bowden for having a penchant for eliminating people. Oester called him the worst person in the world. Sean Casey said Bowden's tales about $10 M demands were blatant lies. Phillips claims that Bowden misled him with the whole Larkin story, and confirmed that Larkin's agent said all along that Larkin would only accept a trade if there was an extension involved.

    I don't understand how people say that Ron Oester isn't credible, or that so and so is not credible with their stories about Bowden. What makes them less credible than Bowden himself? Fourteen people have come out of the woodwork to speak of Bowden's deceits. It is extremely far-fetched to propose that they are all conspiring together or just lying for the heck of it. And I know of a number of people who are too classy but have PLENTY to say about the working environment of the Cincinnati Reds.

    People may wonder what this has to do with the Reds. A lot. Bowden was openly willing to deal Scott Williamson days before he had season-ending surgery for assorted crap like Ben Grieve. If I were a rival GM, I wouldn't go anywhere near this guy because I would know that there was a decent chance that I was getting something broken in return. I am not saying that GM's avoid him, but as a rival I would go someplace else first.

    If it's character assassination to report the things Bowden has done (when asked by another poster), while drawing obvious conclusions based on the volume and disgust in the responses, well I am guilty as charged.

    I hardly understand how a person with fourteen known detractors (and plenty more who won't come out), compares to a person who has represented himself largely with class and dignity throughout his career. Larkin has taken many guys like Pokey Reese and showed him the ropes and helped him get acclimated to middle infield positions. In contrast, Bowden has largely eliminated anyone with skill underneath him (see Rogers, Hughes, McKeon). I just don't see the comparison at all.

  15. #59
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    Well, lgj, this may all be true. But since what you point to has ALL happened in the media, and I have never seen a single person sit down with Jim and confront him with any of this, I still have to wonder.
    "Is there a problem officers?"

  16. #60
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    red-in-la,

    I think it's mindleboggling to assume Bowden didn't exactly know what Larkin's terms for a trade were.

    Bowden was trying to shop a 10/5 guy that could block a trade.
    It was well documented that Allen and Bowden had several conversations with Lark before the Mets trade. I'm sure since Bowden + Allen wanted to dump Lark really badly, that they knew EXACTLY what Larkin wanted (a multiyear deal).

    Bowden lied to the Mets. Pure and simple. The Mets just wanted a rental.. Bowden knew Lark wouldn't accept a rental but tried to work it anyway.

    Bowden did tell Phillips he thought Lark was a lock to accept the trade to get out of the "atmosphere of negativity" in Cincy.

    Bowden gambled, and ended up looking like a fool.

    And the circumstances of the trade don't change the fact that Bowden was harping for years how he wanted Lark to retire as a Red, but in reality the plan was to dump Larkin the whole time.

    You don't have to like Larkin, but you are pretty naive if you believe it was a huge misunderstanding. The GMs just said that after the fact to avoid looking stupid. You can bet Bowden knew which teams Larkin would go to and what his terms were. Bowden is a liar, but not an idiot.


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