Why is Bowden a liar?

[letsgojunior]

There's a huge difference between a tough negotiator and an unprincipled one. What comes around goes around, especially when you work in an industry with only 30 entities.

CC, I was thinking about you saying this when I was reading Peter Gammons archive and searched for this thread.

Check this out, circa 2001:

Q: Some folks were surprised at how hard Jim Bowden was marketing Scott Williamson during the offseason, suggesting that a GM as good as Bowden wouldn't try so hard to move such a great young pitcher unless he knew something wasn't right. Now, two games into the season, it turns out that Williamson will require season-ending surgery because of a torn elbow ligament. How, if at all, should this reflect on Bowden? Does he get credit for recognizing something wasn't right, or does he take a hit for (possibly knowingly) peddling damaged goods? -- Don Money, Andover, Mass.
PWG: That was the subject of several conversations between general managers Thursday, and the A's should be darned happy they got Johnny Damon, not Williamson, for Ben Grieve. Bowden was trying hard to deal Williamson at the end of spring training and offered him for Daryle Ward and Russell Branyan.

[Red Thunder]

What a lot of people tend (or like) to forget is, that Bowden was MLB executive of the year in '99. Let's not make him worse than he is.

How unhappy must Orioles, Red Sox, Rangers or Dodgers fans have to be with their GM's, considering all the money those teams can spend each season.

[letsgojunior]

Originally posted by Red Thunder
What a lot of people tend (or like) to forget is, that Bowden was MLB executive of the year in '99. Let's not make him worse than he is.

How unhappy must Orioles, Red Sox, Rangers or Dodgers fans have to be with their GM's, considering all the money those teams can spend each season.

Red Thunder, you asked us (and in particular, me) in this thread why Bowden was a liar. Not whether we thought he was a good GM. I think he is a pretty good one, potentially cracking the top 10 on a good day. However, you asked about his other side, not whether he was ever executive of the year or had made some random trade steals.

Knowlingly peddling an injured player (which I am trying to find the link to, I believe he admitted to dealing John Smiley knowing he was hurt), is unethical and immoral. You asked me to name known incidences, I am merely complying.

[red-in-la]

My son-in-law was teling me over Christmas how he still gets cold sweats thinking of Kevin Malone as the Dodger's GM. By any measure, Bowden is at least very good at his job.

[Team Tuck]

Wait a minute. On the Williamson thing, we're criticizing Bowden for recognizing that Williamson was injury prone because he threw so hard and had bad mechanics? Sounds like a good GM to me. I mean, how would Bowden have known for certain that something was wrong when an MRI wasn't even done until after the reg season began. And it seems to me that Williamson had a decent spring that year, but Reitsma had such a great spring that they gave the starting job to Reitsma. Plus Reitsma had better control, so they figured Reitsma was better suited for the rotation. It wasn't until Willy's second appearance of the reg season that it became obvious something was wrong, when he fired several pitches over LaRue's head or 2 feet outside.

[Red Thunder]

lgj,

I know that my last response was a bit off-topic. So were a couple of posts from other people who have responded and at which my executive of the year statement was aimed. If you look at other posts (chili, Chip and also from yourself) you will realize, that there are a couple of arguments against Bowden which don't have something to with him being a liar or not. I just added another part to this discussion.

Concerning the liar statement: I still question if what Oester and Pokey said can be trusted more than Bowden's word - it's their word against his and nobody knows for sure who is right and who is wrong.

That leaves the "Shaw handshake agreement" as the only obvious lie which was named in this thread so far. I'm still curious to hear about more of his lies ... otherwise one lie over ten years of his tenure as Reds GM doesn't make JimBo a liar to me.

[Team Tuck]

On the Kremchek thing, give me a break. Kremchek clearly stated several times that Griffey 'might be ready by Opening Day'. I'll go find the articles if you want me to. Direct quotes from the Doc himself. Kremchek is the one who listed him as day-to-day in March. He wasn't playing every day until what, June? If that's not a mis-diagnosis of the severity of the injury, then what the hell is? Kremchek should have been fired for that one.

Kremchek needs to focus on his job and quit worrying about being on TV and radio all the time. I think Kremchek considers himself a local celebrity.

[KittyDuran]

On the Kremchek thing, give me a break. Kremchek clearly stated several times that Griffey 'might be ready by Opening Day'.

Throw all reason out when dealing with issues on Junior... How do we know that the diagnosis as stated did not come from someone higher up or from Junior himself? We are talking about a major superstar on the team who wants to play, who makes the most money, brings people to the ballpark solely to see him, etc. I guess the Reds feel that you need to give the fans a little hope at the cost of the truth.

[Team Tuck]

I don't think Bowden is well-liked or that he exercises much tact. But, some of these stories reek of jumping on a bandwagon.

I also agree with the poster who suggested that being the GM who works for Lindner and Allen, given their lack of creativity, would be a tough job.

Allen is the guy I'd like to see fired. He has done nothing to help this organization. Where is the marketing, where is the creativity, where is the enthusiasm? We need somebody in that position who can sell tickets and grow the revenue line, rather than somebody who is forever concerned about cutting the cost line. Uncle Carl's budget is the same every year - break even. But there's more than one way to accomplish that. How 'bout focusing on revenues, selling more tickets, advertising, improving the game environment, being creative like minor league clubs, making it more fan friendly, having nice ushers, etc etc etc. Even with a new stadium, I have a zero confidence in John Allen to make it work. And if that's not his job, then what is Allen's job? Does the marketing director not report to him?

[icehole3]

I agree Tuck...Kremchek is a nut.

I would rather have Jimbo playing poker for me 10 days a week.

He's a liar, damn good GM though.

[Team Tuck]

I understand what you're saying Kitty, but then Bowden is no more a liar than John Allen and Doc Kremchek. Kremchek's the team doctor and the guy the media turns to for injury updates. Did he mis-diagnose the severity of the injury or did he flat out say things to the media that he didn't believe himself? We will never know for sure, but in either case, I'm hard pressed to feel sorry for him.

[KittyDuran]

He has done nothing to help this organization. Where is the marketing, where is the creativity, where is the enthusiasm?

Well, he did have some at the beginning when the reins of the club were taken away from Marge - gave away grab bags, had $1 hotdogs and sodas for certain games, started RedsFest, and retired uniform numbers and put them on the wall. What has happened since then has been a puzzle, tho' I believe Lindner probably put the reins on Allen...

[Redsfaithful]

"Q: Some folks were surprised at how hard Jim Bowden was marketing Scott Williamson during the offseason, suggesting that a GM as good as Bowden wouldn't try so hard to move such a great young pitcher unless he knew something wasn't right. Now, two games into the season, it turns out that Williamson will require season-ending surgery because of a torn elbow ligament. How, if at all, should this reflect on Bowden? Does he get credit for recognizing something wasn't right, or does he take a hit for (possibly knowingly) peddling damaged goods? -- Don Money, Andover, Mass.
PWG: That was the subject of several conversations between general managers Thursday, and the A's should be darned happy they got Johnny Damon, not Williamson, for Ben Grieve. Bowden was trying hard to deal Williamson at the end of spring training and offered him for Daryle Ward and Russell Branyan."

I'm certainly happy we still have Scott Williamson and not Ben Grieve. Williamson had a heck of a year last year, and he's still only going to be 27 next season. Trying to trade Williamson shouldn't be counted as a knock on Bowden, since his injury wasn't career threatening.

[Larkin Fan]

Originally posted by KittyDuran
Throw all reason out when dealing with issues on Junior... How do we know that the diagnosis as stated did not come from someone higher up or from Junior himself? We are talking about a major superstar on the team who wants to play, who makes the most money, brings people to the ballpark solely to see him, etc. I guess the Reds feel that you need to give the fans a little hope at the cost of the truth.

No doctor worth his weight in salt is going to throw out a less than accurate diagnosis knowingly, regardless of what a superstar or someone else wants. As a doctor, your reputation depends on things like that. Kremchek botched the Griffey (and several other cases) miserably and Bowden was right on. It's pretty obvious. Maybe that's just because medicine is my thing, but still...

[Team Tuck]

I'm not sure what happened in the Oester ordeal, although IMO, I'll agree that that was a Bowden mistake. It should have been clear to Oester that the $300k was a final offer, no bargaining room. At the same time, Oester is a short fuse and is bitter - his comments regarding Griffey (when he mentioned Casey as having complained about Griffey) showed very little class and hurt his credibility. Even if Casey had those talks with Oester, Ronnie should have NEVER shared that publicly. Those talks happen all the time behind closed doors and are not meant to be made public. If I were Casey, I would have pulled Oester aside at the Cinergy celebration and chewed his ass.

The Shaw thing - didn't Shaw later admit that it was his mistake for not including a no trade clause in his contract and that he didn't blame Bowden for trying to rebuild. He said he was pissed at the time, but later forgave Bowden. And it was Shaw who wanted to come back last year?