Why is Bowden a liar?

[creek14]

Originally posted by RFS62
Outstanding post, Old Red Guard, as usual.

Ditto

[Larkin Fan]

Originally posted by KittyDuran
Throw all reason out when dealing with issues on Junior... How do we know that the diagnosis as stated did not come from someone higher up or from Junior himself? We are talking about a major superstar on the team who wants to play, who makes the most money, brings people to the ballpark solely to see him, etc. I guess the Reds feel that you need to give the fans a little hope at the cost of the truth.

No doctor worth his weight in salt is going to throw out a less than accurate diagnosis knowingly, regardless of what a superstar or someone else wants. As a doctor, your reputation depends on things like that. Kremchek botched the Griffey (and several other cases) miserably and Bowden was right on. It's pretty obvious. Maybe that's just because medicine is my thing, but still...

[Larkin Fan]

Originally posted by red-in-la
I find it interesting LF, that you made no comment about those who assail Bowden's character constantly. I will give you your point. I have tried to stay away from getting on Larkin's case.....but this darned article was reposted and the apparent attempt was to make Bowden out to be the bad guy.

I will attempt to stay off Barry's case until October of 2003...gulp!

I didn't say anything regarding Bowden because I don't consider this thread character assassination. LGJ and others have made a great case for Bowden's character (or lackthereof) and have provided numerous examples to illustrate their position. That isn't character assassination. I just have a problem with assaulting the character of a stand-up guy like Barry Larkin and associating the word sleaze with him. I would have had the same problem if the subject was Sean Casey or any other Reds player.

[Larkin Fan]

Originally posted by red-in-la
I read this article again and find it mind-boggling that between Alllen, Larkin's agent, Bowden and Larkin himself, Bowden is being labeled the sleeze.....unbelieveable.

Look, this constant character assassination of Larkin is getting old and it's completely uncalled for. You don't like the fact that he's a Red and that's fine, but quit attacking his character.

Larkin is a stand-up guy and a class act. This "sleeze" (sic) has made the days of countless sick and dying kids, who's only wish has been to meet him. He's not only simply visited them, he's literally spent hours with them and has also taken other Reds players to meet these unfortunate kids. And let's not forget the millions of dollars that he has raised for underpriveleged children and the done countless things he's for the city of Cincinnati. For example, purchasing over 100 air conditioners during a heat wave so that the poor could at least have a little comfort. The list goes on and on for this guy. What have those of you that have been attacking him done?

Quite honestly, these comments say a lot more about the Larkin attackers, than they do him.

[MikeS21]

OK, JimBo gets canned/quits (tak your pick).

Who replaces him?

My fear is that it will be a repeat of the Bob Boone hiring - the lowest bidder gets the job. We needed Lou Pinella and ended up with Bob Boone. Well, we need a "Lou Pinella"-type as GM - not a "Bob Boone" type.

Who do you realistically get to replace Bowden?

[MikeS21]

M2, do you have any possible names to throw out?

I've heard Tim Nehring and Doc Rogers mentioned. Since Rogers has gotten demoted, possibly Nehring has the inside track.

Can you think of anyone else?

[MikeS21]

Oh don't misunderstand me. I was ready ship Bowden out last summer, after the Kremcheck fiasco. You don't need to convince me that he needs to go. But Chip, you said it yourself. The Reds will be fine as long as the new guy "knows what he is doing."

But I fear the replacement because I know how it will go down. And if the Reds bring in a guy who knows nothing about developing minor league talent, or who knows nothing about evaluating major league talent, we're going to be screwed worse than we already are. (And we ARE screwed).

Ideally, I want someone who has actually had some success as a GM. The FO needs a housecleaning - not a whipping boy. But the GM's job will go to the lowest bidder - and that's going to be an inexperienced guy who will learn on the job.

[919191]

But can those without character suffer character assassination?

[RFS62]

Outstanding post, Old Red Guard, as usual.

[CougarQuest]

I'll add this.

How absolutely ignorant does a top executive have to be not to make a condition of a trade that the person you want to trade for passes a physical?

Aren't the other GM a low down sleezy scoundral too? Seems to me Bowden has traded for a couple of pitchers that went to the DL quickly afterwards. Neagle, Etherton, Silva...

Oh and I forgot this, I think Bowden was right on Kremchek. Kremchek blew it. His words in the newsprint, not Bowden speaking for him. But Kremchek is looked upon as the sweet lovable clown around guy.

Bowden lacks the "pc" tact. Allen isn't any better. From the sounds of some of the comments in here, it sounds like the media relations guy is lacking the "pc" skills also.

[CougarQuest]

My memory is foggy, but didn't even us fans know that Etherton was hurt when we got him? If not, perhaps the Anahiem GM told Bowden that Etherton was hurt, and since the asking price was only Carcares (who wasn't in our plans anyhow), Bowden took the chance that Etherton could get better. In my opinion, this was a good trade. Whenever you can trade something useless for something potentially useful, that is a good trade. It just didn't work out. Etherton never got better.

Don't get me wrong, I really liked that trade when it happened. I thought Etherton was going to be one of the surprises that year for the Reds pitching (he was a surprise for me, just not how I touted him to be). In fact, I made several posts that year that people should not overlook Etherton. I don't recall having prior knowledge about his injury. Then last year I thought he was going to be healthy enough to be the forgotten one and surprise people again. I'm not going to say anything this year, because I am starting to feel like a jinx to this guy.

I know that Silva had a history of injury problems when we got him. Again, it was a gamble.

But don't you remember how much Bowden was touting this guy in the off season after he got him and at the beginning of spring training? I don't think Bowden had a clue he was injured goods. Should he have? I think a medical exam before the trade was completed would have told the story, but maybe not. Perhaps he did know and thought it was worth a gamble for the 24 yr old, single A, rhp Ben Shaffar, who he got in the Tucker trade.

As far as Neagle goes, we will never know. But I'm guessing Atlanta told Bowden everything they knew. Maybe Atl did tell him everything he knew. In any event, we got plenty of good usage out of Neagle.

To me the Neagle situation was just like the Williamson situation. Bowden suspected that Williamson was a game away from being on the DL as well as Atlanta suspected that Neagle was on his way. Did either have prior official medical knowledge, maybe not. I was not and will not say that I was unhappy about the trade to get Neagle. It was disheartening to see Neagle need medical help so quickly though. Would a medical exam have shown Neagle's problem before the trade was consumated. It should have, since they found it so quickly in the spring training medical exam. Would that have made a difference in the trade? Maybe the trade would have still gone through, but it may have affected how many or what calibre players were sent to the Braves.

Trading for players is like buying a used car. You should have them checked out before you buy, in my opinion. If you did have them checked out beforehand, and the problem arises that quickly that you didn't know about, then perhaps you need a new mechanic or doctor. If you didn't have them checked out beforehand, then you need to look in the mirror and blame the person you see. I just don't see Bowden as any worse than any other GM in this situation. They're all used car salesman. Now his mouth and his people skills compared to other GM's is another situation.

[KittyDuran]

He has done nothing to help this organization. Where is the marketing, where is the creativity, where is the enthusiasm?

Well, he did have some at the beginning when the reins of the club were taken away from Marge - gave away grab bags, had $1 hotdogs and sodas for certain games, started RedsFest, and retired uniform numbers and put them on the wall. What has happened since then has been a puzzle, tho' I believe Lindner probably put the reins on Allen...

[KittyDuran]

On the Kremchek thing, give me a break. Kremchek clearly stated several times that Griffey 'might be ready by Opening Day'.

Throw all reason out when dealing with issues on Junior... How do we know that the diagnosis as stated did not come from someone higher up or from Junior himself? We are talking about a major superstar on the team who wants to play, who makes the most money, brings people to the ballpark solely to see him, etc. I guess the Reds feel that you need to give the fans a little hope at the cost of the truth.

[KittyDuran]

to be labeled a "liar" is NOT character assignation but
if one's namesake is called a "sleeze" , then that is?

Apples to oranges, GA... Since Bowden is not a player, part of Rule #5 doesn't apply, so it's open season. (One of the subtle (sp?) rules to the Redszone).

[Red Thunder]

lgj,

I know that my last response was a bit off-topic. So were a couple of posts from other people who have responded and at which my executive of the year statement was aimed. If you look at other posts (chili, Chip and also from yourself) you will realize, that there are a couple of arguments against Bowden which don't have something to with him being a liar or not. I just added another part to this discussion.

Concerning the liar statement: I still question if what Oester and Pokey said can be trusted more than Bowden's word - it's their word against his and nobody knows for sure who is right and who is wrong.

That leaves the "Shaw handshake agreement" as the only obvious lie which was named in this thread so far. I'm still curious to hear about more of his lies ... otherwise one lie over ten years of his tenure as Reds GM doesn't make JimBo a liar to me.