Turn Off Ads?
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 85

Thread: Why is Bowden a liar?

  1. #61
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    20,748

    continued

    but red-in-la, they all have confronted Bowden about this..

    I'd love to see Bowden and Dimitri duke it out on Jerry Springer.. but what is Dimitri supposed to do? (For example?) All he can do is tell his side of the story to the press, which he did.

    Just how are all these people supposed to confront Bowden.

    If I remember correctly, Jocketty said he'd never trade with bowden again after the Brantley deal. What else is he supposed to do?

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #62
    Member CougarQuest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Bright, Indiana USA
    Posts
    5,573
    I'll add this.

    How absolutely ignorant does a top executive have to be not to make a condition of a trade that the person you want to trade for passes a physical?

    Aren't the other GM a low down sleezy scoundral too? Seems to me Bowden has traded for a couple of pitchers that went to the DL quickly afterwards. Neagle, Etherton, Silva...

    Oh and I forgot this, I think Bowden was right on Kremchek. Kremchek blew it. His words in the newsprint, not Bowden speaking for him. But Kremchek is looked upon as the sweet lovable clown around guy.

    Bowden lacks the "pc" tact. Allen isn't any better. From the sounds of some of the comments in here, it sounds like the media relations guy is lacking the "pc" skills also.
    Last edited by CougarQuest; 12-30-2002 at 09:07 PM.
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

  4. #63
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Westerville, OH
    Posts
    10,541
    Originally posted by red-in-la
    I find it interesting LF, that you made no comment about those who assail Bowden's character constantly. I will give you your point. I have tried to stay away from getting on Larkin's case.....but this darned article was reposted and the apparent attempt was to make Bowden out to be the bad guy.

    I will attempt to stay off Barry's case until October of 2003...gulp!
    I didn't say anything regarding Bowden because I don't consider this thread character assassination. LGJ and others have made a great case for Bowden's character (or lackthereof) and have provided numerous examples to illustrate their position. That isn't character assassination. I just have a problem with assaulting the character of a stand-up guy like Barry Larkin and associating the word sleaze with him. I would have had the same problem if the subject was Sean Casey or any other Reds player.

  5. #64
    Team Tuck
    Guest
    blah, blah, blah. Oh no, 14 people don't like Jim Bowden. What are we going to do? I've heard that an average of only 9 people in the entire world dislike other GMs - I sure wish we could have one of those guys, you know, a Mr. Homecoming King type, running our club.

    Bowden rules. If somebody has to split blood, make it the other guy.

  6. #65
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    24,704
    "Bowden rules."

    Except that he doesn't.

    He rules insofar as he's been given more second chances than any other GM in history.

  7. #66
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bexley, OH
    Posts
    7,454
    Falls City I asked you in another thread to please state what deals you feel Bowden has wrongly made, and what deals he has made to make him be a bad GM.

    You never responded.

    Please back up your statement and your belief that Bowden is a bad GM. I really don't care if someone doesn't like him, but I'd like to have something to read that tells me why you feel that way.

    he's been given more second chances than any other GM in history.
    When has he been given second chances?
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

  8. #67
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    24,704
    Neagle trade

    Walker trade

    Konerko for Cameron

    Dessens trade

    Casey's contract

    the fact that Aaron Boone still hasn't been traded

    giving 9 years to a player who was 30 and having knee complaints in Seattle

    Hammonds for Bichette

    his utter disregard for signing pitchers to LTC

    his obsession with drafting high school pitchers (not entirely his fault)

    His tenure is ten years old; he has one post season appearance. Check the books. Has there ever been a GM given that much rope?

  9. #68
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bexley, OH
    Posts
    7,454
    Neagle trade
    Neagle has not pitched well since leaving Cincinnati, but he was pitching quite well while here, so I agree that we should have held onto him. The only way this trade really ends up working is if Wily Mo ends up being a quality player.

    Walker trade
    This trade is similar to Dessens, if the prospects pan out then it works. If they don't then it was salary dumping. Part of the reality of being GM for a small market team is that he has to decide what's worth paying for. And I agree that he doesn't seem to feel that pitching is worth paying for.

    Konerko for Cameron
    Led to Ken Griffey Jr. If you don't like acquiring Ken Griffey Jr, then there's no GM in baseball that's going to satisfy you.

    Dessens trade
    Too early to tell, this trade could be genius, it could be idiocy. All depends on how Lopez turns out. Dessens is what he is, he's not going to get better, so the trade value rests on Lopez.

    Casey's contract
    I agree, but Casey has been hurt, and Bowden isn't alone in being unable to forecast injury.

    the fact that Aaron Boone still hasn't been traded
    Third base is a weak position in the NL, both offensively and defensively. Boone is above average defensively and offensively. May as well keep above average players around.

    giving 9 years to a player who was 30 and having knee complaints in Seattle
    His knee isn't the problem, its his hamstring. If you were saying what a bad acquisition Ken Griffey Jr was in '99 then you're either psychic or ... I don't even know because I personally don't know anyone that didn't like this deal. If you don't like this deal then no GM will satisfy you, because every GM in baseball would have loved to have Jr, especially at the terms of his contract.

    Hammonds for Bichette
    Led to Reitsma. Plus Hammonds is a terrible player who had one decent year in Colorado. Decent offensive years in Colorado don't carry much weight with me.

    his utter disregard for signing pitchers to LTC
    I agree somewhat, but I don't like signing anyone to LTC of more than three years. I think its (nearly) always a bad idea.

    his obsession with drafting high school pitchers (not entirely his fault)
    I agree 100%, and I'd add that he doesn't allocate enough money to be able to draft at will. The Reds really hurt themselves by not signing their picks, or picking only players they can sign.

    A couple of good points, but I have real issue with some of your problems with Bowden. Have you read Doc. Scott's Trade Scorecard in the archives?
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

  10. #69
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Ga
    Posts
    2,362

    hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

    2/09/07
    Last edited by Ga_Red; 02-09-2007 at 03:38 AM.

  11. #70
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    26,580
    Originally posted by Redsfaithful
    Neagle trade
    Neagle has not pitched well since leaving Cincinnati, but he was pitching quite well while here, so I agree that we should have held onto him. The only way this trade really ends up working is if Wily Mo ends up being a quality player.

    Walker trade
    This trade is similar to Dessens, if the prospects pan out then it works. If they don't then it was salary dumping. Part of the reality of being GM for a small market team is that he has to decide what's worth paying for. And I agree that he doesn't seem to feel that pitching is worth paying for.

    Konerko for Cameron
    Led to Ken Griffey Jr. If you don't like acquiring Ken Griffey Jr, then there's no GM in baseball that's going to satisfy you.

    Dessens trade
    Too early to tell, this trade could be genius, it could be idiocy. All depends on how Lopez turns out. Dessens is what he is, he's not going to get better, so the trade value rests on Lopez.

    Casey's contract
    I agree, but Casey has been hurt, and Bowden isn't alone in being unable to forecast injury.

    the fact that Aaron Boone still hasn't been traded
    Third base is a weak position in the NL, both offensively and defensively. Boone is above average defensively and offensively. May as well keep above average players around.

    giving 9 years to a player who was 30 and having knee complaints in Seattle
    His knee isn't the problem, its his hamstring. If you were saying what a bad acquisition Ken Griffey Jr was in '99 then you're either psychic or ... I don't even know because I personally don't know anyone that didn't like this deal. If you don't like this deal then no GM will satisfy you, because every GM in baseball would have loved to have Jr, especially at the terms of his contract.

    Hammonds for Bichette
    Led to Reitsma. Plus Hammonds is a terrible player who had one decent year in Colorado. Decent offensive years in Colorado don't carry much weight with me.

    his utter disregard for signing pitchers to LTC
    I agree somewhat, but I don't like signing anyone to LTC of more than three years. I think its (nearly) always a bad idea.

    his obsession with drafting high school pitchers (not entirely his fault)
    I agree 100%, and I'd add that he doesn't allocate enough money to be able to draft at will. The Reds really hurt themselves by not signing their picks, or picking only players they can sign.

    A couple of good points, but I have real issue with some of your problems with Bowden. Have you read Doc. Scott's Trade Scorecard in the archives?
    All very good points.

    You have to look at each situation on an individual basis.

    Neagle did himself in by publically playing the "PR" game when he's in Cleveland by making statements, while still a Red, that he'd love to play for the Inidans. His character/actions during this time is never seemed to be questioned. And there was no way he was worth the 10 MIl/yr he was demanding

    Jeffrey Hammonds? Talk about a guy with bad knees/hamstrings who, with the exception of 1 yr with the Rockies, is a "picture" of underachieving. I'm sure the Brewers would love to unload him though

    The Walker trade was to free up money. I'll withhold judgment until I see what they do with it before the season starts. I think they are trying to work some deals for a pitcher, and having that money sure can't hurt.

    And as far as Dessens goes. I again, think think was done to free up salary. And while I acknowledge Dessens accomplished alot more last year, I wasn't that keen on him. But I did hate to see us lose a pitcher (unless their intent is to acquire one to fill that role). Elmer's win-loss % and innings pitched per game wasn't nothing to howl about.

    It's a wonder no one mentioned Greg Vaughn

    Sometimes hindsight is everything.

  12. #71
    Waiting for a tour/album KittyDuran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Hamilton, Ohio
    Posts
    8,381
    to be labeled a "liar" is NOT character assignation but
    if one's namesake is called a "sleeze" , then that is?

    Apples to oranges, GA... Since Bowden is not a player, part of Rule #5 doesn't apply, so it's open season. (One of the subtle (sp?) rules to the Redszone).
    2014 Reds record when I'm attending: 3-4
    2014 Dragons record when I'm attending: 1-0
    "We want to be the band to dance to when the bomb drops." - Simon Le Bon of Duran Duran

  13. #72
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    26,580
    To be portrayed as a liar is not attacking someone's character?

    Since when? And if so, then we need to apologize to our former President!

  14. #73
    Member 919191's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    the corner bar
    Posts
    3,779
    But can those without character suffer character assassination?
    Last edited by 919191; 12-31-2002 at 03:04 PM.

  15. #74
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Saint Joseph, Mo
    Posts
    601
    Just an observation - but have you noticed that the GMs that Bowden seems to get along with and trade with are the young brash ones - Beane, Epstein, Cashman etc. Older ones like Ash, Jocketty, Gillick all seem to despise him. It has been my experience in life that young adults - those in their 20s and 30s especially value results, period. Anything short of criminal behavior is alright if the results are good - its one reason many corporations skew hiring toward younger executives and salespeople for front line jobs. They are more aggressive, more competitive and ruthless in general. Around 40, when middle age and spare tires begin to settle around us and claim us in that generation we were "never going to become one of" (how many of us in our arrogance of youth have told our fathers "I'll never let myself get in THAT shape") we begin to value other things equally with success. Money and success in our profession becomes much less of a measuring stick to judge others by - and the guy we would have fired forthwith a decade earlier we give a second chance. Bowden himself mentioned in an interview that he feels he is beginning to mellow (perhaps part of the reason for his silence this off season although I think a gag order was in effect).
    Older GMs that value absolute honesty, like Gord Ash and Jocketty, despise Bowden's machinations, they look at his open one-upping of Gillick, and Malone, to name just two, the same way us older fans look at guys who swagger and dance and show up pitchers after hitting a homer. Unsportsmanlike, obnoxious, arrogant. Younger fans in general (I know generalizations are dangerous - to you younger Zoners who find these "in your face" displays obnoxious, I apologize for including you) think its exciting, its flashy, showy and adds to the game. In much the same way, Bowden is viewed by younger GMs as doing whatever it takes to get a job done. Older Gms know you can get the job done with integrity, too. Personally, I am less impressed by Bowden each year - I believe Marty Schottenheimer was right when he said, as he resigned from the Chiefs, "ten years is long enough to get the job done - if you haven't then its time to move on."

  16. #75
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    24,704
    "A couple of good points, but I have real issue with some of your problems with Bowden."

    Oh I have more, but I'd rather not scan the archives for all of my posts; I've trammeled that ground so many times before you ever showed up (no offense) I'm just a little tired of going over it again. But a few points to add:

    1. You neglected to respond to the most damning piece of criticism I leveled at Bowden: 10 years, one playoff appearance.
    Can you honestly name a GM kept that long with only ONE playoff appearance?

    2. Why is Dr. Scott's OPINION ultimately more reliable than mine?

    3. For an excellent recapitulation of points against Bowden, read M2's posts in the "Edskin's column" thread (the sticky).


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25