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Thread: Why is Bowden a liar?

  1. #16
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MikeS21
    OK, JimBo gets canned/quits (tak your pick).

    Who replaces him?

    My fear is that it will be a repeat of the Bob Boone hiring - the lowest bidder gets the job. We needed Lou Pinella and ended up with Bob Boone. Well, we need a "Lou Pinella"-type as GM - not a "Bob Boone" type.

    Who do you realistically get to replace Bowden?
    Mike, I like Bowden but I'm not afraid to say that the emperor may not not be wearing any pants - leather or otherwise. I am not going to say that if JimBo goes the Reds will go into the toilet. JimBo has made some good trades but he also has made some stinkers too, just like all GMs. JimBo's best perceived talent, it seems, is the ability to assemble a roster at bargain basement prices. This is especially in regards to pitching. JimBo goes out and finds guys on the scrap heaps of other teams and turns them over to Don Gullett and hope he can resurrect them from the dead. If they stink, sayonara. If they do well, they usually go to another team via trade or free agency. If they do OK, they stick around till they get too expensive or they get injured.

    Let's pretend that JimBo takes his leave of the Reds. His successor will have his marching orders from John Allen to build as good of a team as he can with a $50M payroll. Now I really don't think it takes a great deal of genius to do that. Billy Beane has been doing the same thing in OAK for about 5 years now. Not to say Beane is an idiot but just using the example to show that JimBo isn't the only GM out there that can win with a small payroll. You and I can go out there and say, "Let's get Jaret Wright and this guy who the Mets released and this person who the Giants non-tendered and so on and so forth and get Gully to work his magic on them." It may not be a team that has the success of the A's. Heck, it may just be a tream that has the Reds' level of recent success - or non success. But putting together a team on a $50M budget can be done.

    I know if I were running the show I would look at the Braves, the Padres, the Mets and the As and look at their minor league organizations and see why they can develop good pitchers while the Reds can't. If they are drafting college pitchers, I do the same. If they have them throw twice between starts, that's what I do too. If they coddle their pitchers and put them on pitch counts, I do likewise. If they stand on their heads for a half hour a day, my pitchers are so there. I would also see if I could steal some of their coaches and scouts so I could have the same success as they have had. I know what else I would have done that unfortunately can't be done now. I would have tried to trade for every decent prospect - especially pitchers - that Montreal had last year. They were gonna be contracted - or so the theory went. What did they need prospects for?

    JimBo's a pretty good GM but he does have his weak spots. He tends to overrate toolsy players - and acquire them - and underrate pitching. I would think trying to develop young pitching - cheap, young pitching - would make Allen and Lindner turn cartwheels. Instead we get the annual parade of 5 tool prospects and washed up pitchers that other teams have let go. I will give JimBo credit. He has been known to turn one of those guys into a pretty good return now and then. But there is still no one ready to step up to the MLB level in the minors. I don't think replacing JimBo will spell doom and gloom for the Reds if his replacement knows what he's doing.
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  3. #17
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    On the matter of whether JimBo's replacement could be a worse proposition, it's distinctly likely.

    Yet, and I posted this last year, sooner or later Lindner/Allen are going to hire their own guy. If the choice turns into a disaster then maybe Allen gets washed out in the next flush or Lindner gets disgusted and sells the team to hopefully a more creative and engaged owner.

    Either way, canning JimBo hastens the process.

  4. #18
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    Oh don't misunderstand me. I was ready ship Bowden out last summer, after the Kremcheck fiasco. You don't need to convince me that he needs to go. But Chip, you said it yourself. The Reds will be fine as long as the new guy "knows what he is doing."

    But I fear the replacement because I know how it will go down. And if the Reds bring in a guy who knows nothing about developing minor league talent, or who knows nothing about evaluating major league talent, we're going to be screwed worse than we already are. (And we ARE screwed).

    Ideally, I want someone who has actually had some success as a GM. The FO needs a housecleaning - not a whipping boy. But the GM's job will go to the lowest bidder - and that's going to be an inexperienced guy who will learn on the job.
    Last edited by MikeS21; 12-06-2002 at 02:20 PM.
    Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one, and they don't want someone else's shoved into their face.

  5. #19
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MikeS21
    Ideally, I want someone who has actually had some success as a GM. The FO needs a housecleaning - not a whipping boy. But the GM's job will go to the lowest bidder - and that's going to be an inexperienced guy who will learn on the job.
    How much success as a GM did Beane have when he took over the A's? What about JimBo himself? I'm not saying Carl and John are going to pick a guy who isn't qualified but you never know. They might accidentally stumble on someone who can be a pretty good GM.
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  6. #20
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Mike, I agree with you. All I'm adding to that really is that if Lindner's going to make that mistake then he might as well make it now instead of next year. It would move us that much closer to someone coming in and cleaning up the mess.

  7. #21
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    M2, do you have any possible names to throw out?

    I've heard Tim Nehring and Doc Rogers mentioned. Since Rogers has gotten demoted, possibly Nehring has the inside track.

    Can you think of anyone else?
    Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one, and they don't want someone else's shoved into their face.

  8. #22
    All dyslexics must untie!
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    Has anyone other than me been watching the Speilberg "Taken" series on Sci-Fi this week?

    (If so, you'll understand what this means)

    Jim Bowden = Owen Crawford
    Never overlook the obvious

  9. #23
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Why is Bowden a liar?
    I haven't a clue, but he blows enough smoke that the EPA should outlaw him.

    So is the author of this thread saying that credibility does not matter in the business world or society?

  10. #24
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    I wouldn't want the GM job if John Allen were my boss. Being the GM in Cincy wouldn't be worth the headaches from both ends.

  11. #25
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    Seems funny that Rodgers was demoted when he was rumored to be interim GM if Bowden was canned last year. Seems to me Bowden eliminated Rodgers out of the picture to prevent the Reds having an interim replacement if they decide to can Bowden anytime during next season.

  12. #26
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    I wouldn't want the GM job if John Allen were my boss. Being the GM in Cincy wouldn't be worth the headaches from both ends.
    Allen, Bowden, and Boone all work for that ownership group and Lindner the general partner and do what is mandated or dictated to them that signs their check.

    They work for $$$ not the fans.

  13. #27
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    Here's my reason for looking for another GM:

    10 years, 1 postseason appearance.

    That's all I need to know.

    And as to the logical fallacy that his replacement WILL be worse, I say this: At least from a PR standpoint, it CAN'T get worse. So if the results on the field don't improve(and they haven't for three seasons), at least we can expect a bit more gentlemanly comportment.

  14. #28
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Amen!! Falls City

    enough said of promises of a greater tomorrow........ten years no cigar or cupie doll is enough for me.

  15. #29
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    I don't want the Reds to have a GM that is out to make friends. All the best business men pi$$ other off from time to time. The only way to the top is stepping over/on others.

    As for Shaw Jim refused to give him a NTC in his contract, right then he knew there was a good chance he would get traded. If he didn't like it he should have not signed to contract so he has no one to blame but himself.

  16. #30
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Originally posted by 4256 Hits
    All the best business men pi$$ other off from time to time. The only way to the top is stepping over/on others.
    There's a huge difference between a tough negotiator and an unprincipled one. What comes around goes around, especially when you work in an industry with only 30 entities.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids


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