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Thread: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

  1. #31
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Good question. Cozart was two and a half years older in Dayton in 2008 than Rojas was in Dayton in 2009. Both Cozart and Rojas were exceptional defensively in Dayton. I don't think you could clearly place one above the other. However, I was told that Cozart regressed a bit this season in Carolina (he had 23 errors after having 10 in 2008 in Dayton in a little less than a full season). The Cozart I saw was very good, the best in the league. Rojas was also the best in the league and finished with 13 errors in a full season. Neither has an exceptionally strong arm. Both are extemely smooth and consistent. Rojas is a bit flashier. If you asked me to pick between the two, it would be a tough call, but I might have to give a very slight edge to Rojas, just because of the age difference and he is still improving rapidly.

    I think most would tell you that as of this moment, Janish is ahead of either of those guys defensively, which is more a credit to Janish than anything against Cozart or Rojas.
    Agree that this was a great question from mace. Nothing wrong with having a few major league quality gloves coming up at the SS position. Rojas improved offensively quite a bit in the 2nd half. Do you see any hope for him as a hitter?

    My take on Janish is that what separates him is the arm, which looks elite to me. I doubt there are any shortstops in the majors whose arm you could definitively say is stronger.
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  3. #32
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Thanks, 72. Interesting that, as much as you like those two, you point out that they haven't yet caught Janish defensively. A lot of folks have assumed that it's only a matter of time--possibly a short matter of time--before Cozart takes over; but I wouldn't dismiss Janish that quickly. (Sorry, this is getting off-topic. I won't belabor it.) I keep coming back to the fact that he had 21 doubles in 292 major-league PAs this year. To me, that doesn't suggest a hapless, hopeless bat.

  4. #33
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    I remember hearing Thom B say on a broadcast late in the season that he felt that if the Gold Glove was truly given to the best defensive shortstop in the league, they would have to give it to Janish.

    Do I see any hope for Rojas as a hitter? I am a big, big Rojas fan. While most of his teammates hit below the mark they put up in Billings and in many cases, way below the mark, he improved his average 90 points. He had 44 strikeouts in 469 at-bats. He is a very hard worker. I think this story has been told but there was a day last summer when the team got in late off a road trip (around 3 am as I recall), and before noon, hours before any other players arrived at the park, Rojas was down in the batting tunnel by himself hitting off a tee. The Reds thought Rojas was the best position player prospect on that team even before he improved his hitting. He still has a long way to go and there is no guarantee he is ever better than Ray Olmedo, but I would not bet against him. Todd Benzinger loved him if for no other reason than this: he cared more about the team than himself, an extreme rarity in the minors. With Rojas and Coddington, that's two guys who, based on character alone, deserve the benefit of the doubt.

  5. #34
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    I am a big, big Rojas fan. While most of his teammates hit below the mark they put up in Billings and in many cases, way below the mark, he improved his average 90 points. He had 44 strikeouts in 469 at-bats. He is a very hard worker. I think this story has been told but there was a day last summer when the team got in late off a road trip (around 3 am as I recall), and before noon, hours before any other players arrived at the park, Rojas was down in the batting tunnel by himself hitting off a tee. The Reds thought Rojas was the best position player prospect on that team even before he improved his hitting. He still has a long way to go and there is no guarantee he is ever better than Ray Olmedo, but I would not bet against him. Todd Benzinger loved him if for no other reason than this: he cared more about the team than himself, an extreme rarity in the minors. With Rojas and Coddington, that's two guys who, based on character alone, deserve the benefit of the doubt.
    Man, you're singing my song. I think character is the great undervalued commodity in the game today. (In fact, I'm collecting research on that subject if anybody has anything to add.) And one thing I like about the Reds' prospect list is that it seems populated by guys who ooze it. I hadn't even realized that Rojas and Coddington fit that description. I was thinking of guys like Frazier, Heisey and Stubbs. (And I place Janish in the same category, along with maybe Dickerson, Hanigan and Rosales.) I happen to believe that the turnaround of the Bats last year had a lot to do with the influences of Miller and Lehr, and the same can probably be said of the Reds in September.
    Last edited by mace; 11-03-2009 at 12:48 PM.

  6. #35
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by mace View Post
    Man, you're singing my song. I think that character is the great undervalued commodity in the game today. (In fact, I'm collecting research on that subject if anybody has anything to add.) And one thing I like about the Reds' prospect list is that it seems populated by guys who ooze it. I hadn't even realized that Rojas and Coddington fit that description. I was thinking of guys like Frazier, Heisey and Stubbs. (And I place Janish in the same category, along with maybe Dickerson, Hanigan and Rosales.) I happen to believe that the turnaround of the Bats last year had a lot to do with the influences of Miller and Lehr, and the same can probably be said of the Reds in September.
    Never mind this one. I was trying to edit the previous one.

  7. #36
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    One way I think about Janish is that he will not be easily dislodged. I'd like to see us find a better alternative, internally or from without, but his defense is good enough that he's not going to give up that position easily. If he can approach a .700 OPS, he may not give it up at all for a long time.

  8. #37
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    One way I think about Janish is that he will not be easily dislodged. I'd like to see us find a better alternative, internally or from without, but his defense is good enough that he's not going to give up that position easily. If he can approach a .700 OPS, he may not give it up at all for a long time.

    If you're one of those who believes that the Reds at seasons end was ok offensively, then Janish should stay in the lineup.

    If, like me, you think the team still needs a big offensive upgrade, then something has to change someplace.

    Janish is fine if you add a strong hitting left fielder and get some production from catcher. But something has to get upgraded or the team will again be at the bottom offensively.

  9. #38
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    If you're one of those who believes that the Reds at seasons end was ok offensively, then Janish should stay in the lineup.

    If, like me, you think the team still needs a big offensive upgrade, then something has to change someplace.

    Janish is fine if you add a strong hitting left fielder and get some production from catcher. But something has to get upgraded or the team will again be at the bottom offensively.
    Agree 100% we need offensive upgrade; my point is just that Janish will be harder to replace than we think. Personally the first place I make an upgrade is at catching, by adding somebody who'll be able to split time with Hanigan, thereby making Hanigan better offensively by keeping him from having to play too much. His OPS is going to drop way off, IMO, if he has to start more than half the time. I think we saw some of that this summer. A baby step, I know, but a first one. Others should follow, including SS, but only if the right guy can be found.

  10. #39
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    One way I think about Janish is that he will not be easily dislodged. I'd like to see us find a better alternative, internally or from without, but his defense is good enough that he's not going to give up that position easily. If he can approach a .700 OPS, he may not give it up at all for a long time.
    Agree if he can OPS .700. At this point I'm not certain of .550. The Reds need to go outside the organization to get a shortstop who can field that spot and put up positional league average offense.

    I'm with KC in not being sold on the offense. If the team sticks Stubbs in CF and Janish at SS and just leaves them in there, I think we could have both spots finish with a below .650 OPS. If Stubbs is spotted in with Dickerson and matched up and not over-exposed, I think both guys might be able to manage .750 or so and make it a plus position. SS just needs new blood.
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  11. #40
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Agree if he can OPS .700. At this point I'm not certain of .550. The Reds need to go outside the organization to get a shortstop who can field that spot and put up positional league average offense.

    I'm with KC in not being sold on the offense. If the team sticks Stubbs in CF and Janish at SS and just leaves them in there, I think we could have both spots finish with a below .650 OPS. If Stubbs is spotted in with Dickerson and matched up and not over-exposed, I think both guys might be able to manage .750 or so and make it a plus position. SS just needs new blood.
    I'm not as worried about CF because I think some combination of Stubbs/Dickerson/Heisey will give us a big boost over the vast suckiness of that position this year. And I'm with you guys on the SS but if Janish's defense is near the very top in all of baseball, as it seems it might be, then he's not going to be moved out of that position as easily as it might seem.

  12. #41
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well.

    The offense, with the positive additions of Rolen and Stubbs/Dickerson in lieu of Taveras, may actually be average, as of now.

    But I'd sure like to see someone with a better bat play SS.
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  13. #42
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by mace View Post
    Man, you're singing my song. I think character is the great undervalued commodity in the game today. (In fact, I'm collecting research on that subject if anybody has anything to add.) And one thing I like about the Reds' prospect list is that it seems populated by guys who ooze it. I hadn't even realized that Rojas and Coddington fit that description. I was thinking of guys like Frazier, Heisey and Stubbs. (And I place Janish in the same category, along with maybe Dickerson, Hanigan and Rosales.) I happen to believe that the turnaround of the Bats last year had a lot to do with the influences of Miller and Lehr, and the same can probably be said of the Reds in September.
    I would add to that the influence of Rolen in September. The discussions of 'character' and 'culture of winning' resonate with me as well. One of the challenges for a small market franchise is to recognize and develop dimensions of player performance that contribute to winning, but don't necessarily command high prices in the market place. that requires looking beyond the obvious statistical measures of productivity. I am not sure how to measure character in a baseball player. I suspect that Redzoners could collaborate in developing a list of behaviors and personality characteristics that likely apply.

    BTW, thanks to 72 for answering my question.

  14. #43
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Rolen not only added character he gave the pitching staff confidence in pitching inside to right-handers. The importance of this is incalculable. If you want testimony to the incompetence of a series of decision-makers in this org, you can point, IMHO, to the continued pretending that EE could play third. It lasted almost five years until WJ brought it to an end--in the most truly hope-inspiring move the FO has made, again IMHO, because it suggested that the denial was coming to an end.

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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Definitely Rolen. I had the same reservations as everybody else when that trade was made. But after watching the last month or so of the season, it very much appeared that Rolen was instrumental in bringing out the best in everybody else. It made me think that Jocketty actually made that move in the best interests of the younger players; and made it wisely.

  16. #45
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by mace View Post
    Definitely Rolen. I had the same reservations as everybody else when that trade was made. But after watching the last month or so of the season, it very much appeared that Rolen was instrumental in bringing out the best in everybody else. It made me think that Jocketty actually made that move in the best interests of the younger players; and made it wisely.
    What did you see Rolen do to make the team's other players play better?


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