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Thread: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

  1. #46
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    What did you see Rolen do to make the team's other players play better?

    Don't want to answer for mace, but I don't remember him making an error. I'm sure he must have but I don't remember one.

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  3. #47
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Don't want to answer for mace, but I don't remember him making an error. I'm sure he must have but I don't remember one.
    What did that do to make the other guys play better though? Did he prevent them from making errors?

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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    What did you see Rolen do to make the team's other players play better?
    I agree, I didn't want to say anything earlier in the process (like August) because I wanted to see someone mention anything he did of significance to inspire the rest to play better. A great job of PR the Reds did with this Rolen acquisition. They did play well, very well but an awful lot of people mainly Grande and company made it out like it was all Rolens doing. Maybe it was but I just kinda doubt it, at least to that extent. Perhaps Hokie has a point about the staff pitching inside more. I didn't notice it but it certainly would help to explain why the staff pitched so well late in the season. Although Arroyo always has done that.

    I'm not discounting it out of hand and I'm not saying I'm against the idea of such a thing but I just don't know I believe this team won because of Rolens shining example of a professional ball player. I mean we played pretty well at the end of '08 also. Personally I think it had alot to do with playing the Altoona Pirates team for half the month of September.
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Rolen is not the reason that Bailey and Arroyo were pitching like Christy Mathewson and Grover Cleveland Alexander and he wasn't behind Votto's hot September or Stubbs' impression of Joe Dimaggio. The Reds had a hot streak pure and simple, I'd say the removal of Taveras, Gonzalez and Hairston had more to do with it.

    He gets knocked a lot, but I'd say phillips playing at a pretty high level with a fracture in his hand was a better example of leadership if it matters at all.

    At this point Rolen is a nice player and he was an improvement over EdE's lost season and his struggling relacements, but he is no longer a HOF caliber player. If the Reds are lucky, he'll provide better defense while hitting like a run of the mill 3B.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    He gets knocked a lot, but I'd say phillips playing at a pretty high level with a fracture in his hand was a better example of leadership if it matters at all.
    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    What did that do to make the other guys play better though? Did he prevent them from making errors?

    Absolutely. There's such a thing as a team respecting itself that carries over into everything they do. I think that was what was sorely lacking through much of the middle of the season.

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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    I don't want to say that Rolen was the reason the Reds finished as well as they did. I never believe in any such simple correlations of any kind; things are always more complex. And I do think Jocketty made a series of good moves all together that made the difference: moving Gonzalez and going with Janish [this is not an argument for handing Janish the job in 2010 and beyond]; putting Taveras on for a long DL and moving Stubbs in on an almost everyday basis; sending out Hairston; acquiring Balentien; finding pretty serviceable starting pitching in Lehr and Wells [again not an argument for continuing these guys]; and getting EE off of 3b. But there is one incontestable correlation (not cause) and that is the Reds' greatly improved finish begins at precisely the point Rolen came off the DL after the beaning.
    Last edited by HokieRed; 11-05-2009 at 08:17 AM. Reason: typo

  9. #53
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    What did you see Rolen do to make the team's other players play better?
    1. Baserunning. Rolen, in fact, made a few baserunning blunders, but he was always alert and opportunistic on the basepaths, and that correlated directly with some aggressive, heads-up baserunning perpetrated late in the season by Phillips and Votto.

    2. Defense. When Rolen took over at third, there was simply a general feeling of competence around the infield. Hokie alluded to the difference that surely makes with pitchers, who, for instance, are much more confident about coming inside on a RH hitter. It also saves them outs. All of this is hard to quantify, but don't you think that a guy like him just raises the bar for the whole infield?

    3. Testimony. Player after coach after manager after player talked about the Rolen effect. Phillips, in particular, went on and on about Rolen's leadership, and went so far as to give Rolen the credit for his (Phillips') conspicuously improved effort late in the season.

    Here's a snatch from an interview I did with Phillips late in the year.

    "I donít really know exactly what Scott Rolen brought to the clubhouse, but I know what he did for me. He showed me what type of player Iíd love to try to be like. The way he approaches the game. Heís quiet but he also talks when he has to. He tries to lead by example. His work ethic, the way he takes ground balls, itís just the way he approaches the game. It just shows you the type of player you need to be to be playing as long as him. I thought I was doing okay, but when I saw the way he approached the game it really woke me up a little bit and showed me what type of player I need to be like.

    "Itís like small things. Itís things I was doing but now I try to do it more. The way he takes batting practice, the way he has cage work. The way he hustles. Heíll take the extra base when he can. Heís always somewhere in the middle of something, and thatís the kind of player I see myself being. He picks everybody up. He never says anything bad or negative. Youíll hardly ever see him get mad. If the other guys arenít being influenced, they should be. They should take advantage of having a veteran like him around. Jeff Conine was a great guy to have in the clubhouse and he taught me a lot. Scott Hatteberg really knew the game. But those guys didnít play every day. By having a guy who plays every day and just watching the way he throws the ball around the infield, the way he talks to the pitcher. He just interacts with us. He shows me how to watch the game when heís sitting in the dugout.

    "Iíve been a team player my whole career, but now, watching him, Iím learning to be a real team player. Watching Scott Rolen, the way he acts, it has really shown me how to be a real team player. Heís teaching me how to be a leader. I really hope Scott Rolen stays around for a while, but if not, the leadership that he showed me, I can show the younger guys what Iíve learned and show them what a leaderís supposed to be like. He just told me the only thing he didnít really like what I was doing, he said when I hit a home run, act like I did it before. I still run the bases the same way but I just donít watch the ball like I used to. Thatís the only thing negative heís said about my approach."

    While we're at it, here's Rick Sweet on Rolen:

    "Iíve had two different players come up to me and say, that guy (Rolen) is the ultimate professional. Just out of nowhere. Heís got the size, the physical presence, and also the reputation, and guys just want to gravitate to a guy like that, to see what heís all about. Itís not so much that heís going to take more ground balls, itís just that his approach, from the time he walks through that door, is the same every day. Itís the reputation that precedes him, and then he backs it up with the consistency of his game. Itís not anything you can put your hands on, other than itís just impressive to see him go about his work. Iíll give you an example. The other day playing against St. Louis, heís on second base and heís had some stiffness in his back. Iím not sure who it was hit a flare to left field. He sized it up immediately, and he scores. You know what? Thereís not many guys who do that. Hereís a guy whoís a veteran, weíre out of it, and heís busting his butt to get a great read and make a play like that. In the dugout, three or four guys go, man, did you see that? They pick up on that immediately. Because itís out of the norm that a guy like that makes those plays."

    Obviously, this stuff is anecdotal. You can't show it in the numbers, other than the won-loss record. It's merely a case of whether you believe in it or not. I happen to believe in it. A lot.

    And I should mention, I certainly don't attribute the strong finish entirely to Rolen--even on the intangibles level. I believe that Corky Miller and Justin Lehr were also tremendous influences (as I pointed out in an earlier post).

  10. #54
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    While we're at it, here's Rick Sweet on Rolen:

    "I’ve had two different players come up to me and say, that guy (Rolen) is the ultimate professional. Just out of nowhere. He’s got the size, the physical presence, and also the reputation, and guys just want to gravitate to a guy like that, to see what he’s all about. It’s not so much that he’s going to take more ground balls, it’s just that his approach, from the time he walks through that door, is the same every day. It’s the reputation that precedes him, and then he backs it up with the consistency of his game. It’s not anything you can put your hands on, other than it’s just impressive to see him go about his work. I’ll give you an example. The other day playing against St. Louis, he’s on second base and he’s had some stiffness in his back. I’m not sure who it was hit a flare to left field. He sized it up immediately, and he scores. You know what? There’s not many guys who do that. Here’s a guy who’s a veteran, we’re out of it, and he’s busting his butt to get a great read and make a play like that. In the dugout, three or four guys go, man, did you see that? They pick up on that immediately. Because it’s out of the norm that a guy like that makes those plays."

    Obviously, this stuff is anecdotal. You can't show it in the numbers, other than the won-loss record. It's merely a case of whether you believe in it or not. I happen to believe in it. A lot.
    Great quote from Sweet. I remember that baserunning play -- very impressive. Agree that this kind of influence is very important for a young team like the Reds. I think Jocketty made a wise choice in making Rolen a guy to help the team "learn to win."
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  11. #55
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Quote Originally Posted by mace View Post
    1. Baserunning. Rolen, in fact, made a few baserunning blunders, but he was always alert and opportunistic on the basepaths, and that correlated directly with some aggressive, heads-up baserunning perpetrated late in the season by Phillips and Votto.

    2. Defense. When Rolen took over at third, there was simply a general feeling of competence around the infield. Hokie alluded to the difference that surely makes with pitchers, who, for instance, are much more confident about coming inside on a RH hitter. It also saves them outs. All of this is hard to quantify, but don't you think that a guy like him just raises the bar for the whole infield?

    3. Testimony. Player after coach after manager after player talked about the Rolen effect. Phillips, in particular, went on and on about Rolen's leadership, and went so far as to give Rolen the credit for his (Phillips') conspicuously improved effort late in the season.

    Here's a snatch from an interview I did with Phillips late in the year.

    "I don’t really know exactly what Scott Rolen brought to the clubhouse, but I know what he did for me. He showed me what type of player I’d love to try to be like. The way he approaches the game. He’s quiet but he also talks when he has to. He tries to lead by example. His work ethic, the way he takes ground balls, it’s just the way he approaches the game. It just shows you the type of player you need to be to be playing as long as him. I thought I was doing okay, but when I saw the way he approached the game it really woke me up a little bit and showed me what type of player I need to be like.

    "It’s like small things. It’s things I was doing but now I try to do it more. The way he takes batting practice, the way he has cage work. The way he hustles. He’ll take the extra base when he can. He’s always somewhere in the middle of something, and that’s the kind of player I see myself being. He picks everybody up. He never says anything bad or negative. You’ll hardly ever see him get mad. If the other guys aren’t being influenced, they should be. They should take advantage of having a veteran like him around. Jeff Conine was a great guy to have in the clubhouse and he taught me a lot. Scott Hatteberg really knew the game. But those guys didn’t play every day. By having a guy who plays every day and just watching the way he throws the ball around the infield, the way he talks to the pitcher. He just interacts with us. He shows me how to watch the game when he’s sitting in the dugout.

    "I’ve been a team player my whole career, but now, watching him, I’m learning to be a real team player. Watching Scott Rolen, the way he acts, it has really shown me how to be a real team player. He’s teaching me how to be a leader. I really hope Scott Rolen stays around for a while, but if not, the leadership that he showed me, I can show the younger guys what I’ve learned and show them what a leader’s supposed to be like. He just told me the only thing he didn’t really like what I was doing, he said when I hit a home run, act like I did it before. I still run the bases the same way but I just don’t watch the ball like I used to. That’s the only thing negative he’s said about my approach."

    While we're at it, here's Rick Sweet on Rolen:

    "I’ve had two different players come up to me and say, that guy (Rolen) is the ultimate professional. Just out of nowhere. He’s got the size, the physical presence, and also the reputation, and guys just want to gravitate to a guy like that, to see what he’s all about. It’s not so much that he’s going to take more ground balls, it’s just that his approach, from the time he walks through that door, is the same every day. It’s the reputation that precedes him, and then he backs it up with the consistency of his game. It’s not anything you can put your hands on, other than it’s just impressive to see him go about his work. I’ll give you an example. The other day playing against St. Louis, he’s on second base and he’s had some stiffness in his back. I’m not sure who it was hit a flare to left field. He sized it up immediately, and he scores. You know what? There’s not many guys who do that. Here’s a guy who’s a veteran, we’re out of it, and he’s busting his butt to get a great read and make a play like that. In the dugout, three or four guys go, man, did you see that? They pick up on that immediately. Because it’s out of the norm that a guy like that makes those plays."

    Obviously, this stuff is anecdotal. You can't show it in the numbers, other than the won-loss record. It's merely a case of whether you believe in it or not. I happen to believe in it. A lot.

    And I should mention, I certainly don't attribute the strong finish entirely to Rolen--even on the intangibles level. I believe that Corky Miller and Justin Lehr were also tremendous influences (as I pointed out in an earlier post).
    Excellent stuff mace.

    Now that you mention it I did see a very good and aggressive baserunning game as a team that I haven't seen in awhile and I do contribute that directly to Rolen. Perhaps they are on to something here. Good for Brandon that he has actually went from talking a good game to improving his, in several facets I might add.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  12. #56
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Not sure if this has shown up on any websites yet, but the following Reds players have declared six-year free agency and are now out of the organization. Of course, some could and a few probably will be re-signed after they test the market:

    Shaun Cumberland
    Luis Bolivar
    Ben Davis
    Alexander Smit
    Camilo Vazquez
    Jeff Kennard
    Chris Kroski
    Lew Ford
    Korey Feiner
    Wes Bankston
    Federico Baez
    Greg Atencio
    Last edited by redsof72; 11-11-2009 at 11:16 AM.

  13. #57
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Personally, I'd consider bringing back Cumberland (only if he agrees to start in Carolina--depth is badly needed there), Davis (had good results when he was healthy), Smit (may be effective as a LOOGY), Kennard (has he turned a corner?), and Kroski (a catcher with great plate discipline would be pretty good minor league depth).

  14. #58
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    I thought Cumberland seemed like he had a decent shot as a backup OF...eventually.

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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    Hearing about an interesting announcement coming out of Dayton tomorrow. Can't say what, but it surprised me. Not as big as the Futures Game or anything like that, but still, interesting.

  16. #60
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    Re: Reds cut ties with some Minor Leaguers

    I'd like to see Kennard back. I realize it may be a mistake but he is worth another look more than any other guys on that list. Bankston had some good times at Louisville but his bat is very streaky and his glove doesn't rate. Lew Ford didn't hit too well in his short stint with the Bats but he might make pretty good filler. Good D and very fast. He has shown he can hit elsewhere, he may get in sync.


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