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View Poll Results: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

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  • Tyler Cline

    1 1.28%
  • Matt Fairel

    1 1.28%
  • Josh Fellhauer

    6 7.69%
  • Mariekson Gregorius

    1 1.28%
  • Harold Johnson

    0 0%
  • Donnie Joseph

    4 5.13%
  • Sam Lecure

    2 2.56%
  • Logan Ondrusek

    3 3.85%
  • Miguel Rojas

    3 3.85%
  • Enerio Del Rosario

    1 1.28%
  • Mark Serrano

    4 5.13%
  • Juan Silva

    16 20.51%
  • Jordan Smith

    4 5.13%
  • Juan Carlos Sulbaran

    11 14.10%
  • Daniel Tuttle

    1 1.28%
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    0 0%
  • Humberto Valor

    0 0%
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    1 1.28%
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    19 24.36%
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Thread: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

  1. #31
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Viola + Del Rosario + Ondrusek (3 guys who WILL pitch out of the BP for the Reds, and perhaps well), 3 votes = Donnie Joseph, 3 votes (who might pitch out of the pen for the Reds)???

    These rankings skew way too far toward the newly drafted.
    Not disagreeing but shouldn't a "prospect" be judged by how much better he can make the parent club, not by the fact that he might make the team because they have no other options? That's why I am tired of hearing about Maloney, Valaika, Dorn, etc...the Reds won't get better because of those guys, they may make the team for awhile until someone that can actually improve the team comes along....filler, not prospects. I think some of those guys you mentioned have a chance to make the Reds better however.

    Bum
    Last edited by Bumstead; 12-03-2009 at 09:34 AM. Reason: correct the meaning of the sentence

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  3. #32
    Battle Toad Historian thatcoolguy_22's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    These rankings skew way too far toward the newly drafted.
    I'm doing all of my voting on ceiling. If the guy who is on the cusp of playing in the majors and his career year will equal a sub league average #5 SP is heads up in a poll versus an 18 year old kid who scouts like, I'm taking the kid 90% of the time.
    "Last week I helped my friend stay put. It's a lot easier'n helpin' 'em move. I just went over to his house and made sure that he did not start to load **** into a truck."

  4. #33
    Battle Toad Historian thatcoolguy_22's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Dorn's career .930 OPS against RHP and his line from June-End of the Season at AAA that was .324/.393/.551 over 250 plate appearances sound about right. Dorn got off to a slow start in April/May but he obliterated the baseball for the rest of the season to a tune slightly better than his minor league career before that point.
    If you want to say that then in the 2 games played in the day he OPS'ed .393. There, now we all get to pick and choose the numbers we use for the whole season...

    On Dorn's glove...

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    I could be wrong, but I don't think the Reds are as high on Dorn as some would suggest here. We will find out soon enough if I am wrong or others are wrong. Based on what I have heard, I just don't think they feel he can play any position defensively at an adequate level by big league standards.
    followed by

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    That is what I hear as well, but I just don't buy into that the way that they do.
    and this is quoted for truth

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    I am not taking a position on Dorn because I have not seen him play. But I have been told by some key people with the Reds that they moved him to first base last spring, not because he could play there, but because they were trying to find some place he COULD play.

    Triple-A rosters are filled with guys who hit much better than Dorn has but get stuck in Triple-A because the big league manager does not trust him defensively. A guy like Jon Knott averaged 28 homers a year for four straight years and got 17 big league at-bats because he could not be trusted in the field. There are lots of Brian Buchannon, Kevin Witt types. But when the manager dips down to Triple-A to find someone, he calls up Dewayne Wise or Darnell McDonald.

    If you are going to play defense like Adam Dunn, you better hit like Adam Dunn. Because every time a ball lands on the warning track that a decent outfielder would have caught, which happens all the time, the manager starts second guessing himself, he starts hearing it from the pitchers and the pitching coach, and GM starts hearing it from the pitchers' agents. If the guy is winning games with his bat, it is another story. But he better be doing a lot of hitting. Even guys like Gomes and Nix, while not gold glovers, do have at least adequate range and overall defensive skills.

    If Dorn had no range in the field and can't run the bases, he can still play in the big leagues, but there is a narrow profile he has to fit and it includes a lot of offense.
    The quoting is easier than summarizing

    The Reds don't have a DH.
    "Last week I helped my friend stay put. It's a lot easier'n helpin' 'em move. I just went over to his house and made sure that he did not start to load **** into a truck."

  5. #34
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Dorn again

  6. #35
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by thatcoolguy_22 View Post
    If you want to say that then in the 2 games played in the day he OPS'ed .393. There, now we all get to pick and choose the numbers we use for the whole season...
    Except you are talking about a 2 game sample. At the worst I am talking about a 250 plate appearance sample, that falls in line with another sample of 1500 PA.

  7. #36
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by thatcoolguy_22 View Post
    what about a .793 OPS in AAA for a corner OF is interesting? Not to mention his Dunn like OF defense. I'll take the cathedral ceiling of a Silva any day over the lean-to height of Dorn's promise at this point.
    Code:
    Career Minor Stats       OBP  SLG OPS    GPA
    Jay Bruce		.366 .551 .917	0.3024 5 Seasons
    Daniel Dorn		.375 .509 .884	0.2960 4 Seasons
    Joey Votto 		.386 .477 .862	0.2929 7 Seasons
    Wladimir Balentien	.345 .526 .871	0.2867 6 Seasons
    Todd Frazier 		.367 .491 .858	0.2879 3 Seasons
    Adam Rosales		.364 .491 .855 	0.2865 5 Seasons
    Chris Heisey 		.369 .460 .830	0.2810 4 Seasons
    Laynce Nix		.346 .481 .827	0.2759 9 Seasons
    Drew Sutton		.378 .442 .820	0.2806 6 Seasons
    Juan Francisco 	        .311 .482 .793	0.2604 4 Seasons
    Chris Dickerson 	.363 .414 .776	0.2668 7 Seasons
    Drew Stubbs 		.364 .401 .765	0.2640 4 Seasons
    Paul Janish		.351 .382 .733	0.2534 5 Seasons
    That is what I am going by.
    What he did during his entire minor league career in comparison to other's that we think well of, that have made it to the majors or that we think we read, see and hear promise in making it to the majors soon.

    I think there is one in that entire group that has proven/panned out so far, while the rest we still have to think with a bit of hope they can this or that and we hold them in favorable opin. Votto we know, the rest we optimistically wait with genuine hope. So why can't Dorn be in that mix?
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-03-2009 at 02:07 PM.

  8. #37
    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    So why can't Dorn be in that mix?
    Defense seems to be the primary reason.

  9. #38
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post
    Defense seems to be the primary reason.
    that, and the fact that he probably won't see the team...
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  10. #39
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDblooded View Post
    that, and the fact that he probably won't see the team...
    That shouldn't really come into play. The general rule is that you should vote on a player based on what he would do if given the chance as if he weren't blocked.

  11. #40
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post
    Defense seems to be the primary reason.
    And yet we favor Francisco as a group, go figure. Funny because Dorn's bat has been better also. Oh I know the arguments why Francisco is better I just don't believe we treat Dorn fairly regardless.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  12. #41
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    And yet we favor Francisco as a group, go figure. Funny because Dorn's bat has been better also. Oh I know the arguments why Francisco is better I just don't believe we treat Dorn fairly regardless.
    I don't believe the floor and ceiling I projected for Dorn were unfair. Do you honestly believe that Francisco's ceiling is not higher than Dorn's? He's already reached Dorn's floor...Several of the guys listed above were younger at similar levels compared to Dorn...also, those guys can catch a baseball and actually cover some ground. For Dorn that is a questionable task.

    Bum

  13. #42
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    I do admit that Francisco's defense is quite questionable...however, he is also younger and has a higher ceiling as a hitter.

    Bum

  14. #43
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    I do admit that Francisco's defense is quite questionable...however, he is also younger and has a higher ceiling as a hitter.

    Bum
    Higher ceiling yes. Higher floor? Absolutely not.

  15. #44
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Higher ceiling yes. Higher floor? Absolutely not.
    I agree about the floor. I have never been a Francisco pusher; more skeptical than most, but he is a much better prospect than Dorn.

  16. #45
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #17 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    I agree about the floor. I have never been a Francisco pusher; more skeptical than most, but he is a much better prospect than Dorn.
    That we can agree on for sure. The upside is just enormous for him. His skillset would allow him to be a .300/.360/.600 hitter if things go right. He is just very far from that right now.


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