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Thread: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

  1. #151
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Role players.

    Let's get excited about role players.

    Another sign of The Lost Decade.

    Our farm system produces role players! Yes!
    Here's the thing, Role players are a good thing for a money challenged organization. Growing your own role players allows you to load up the roster with some cheap guys to fill out the squad. The lost decade was fueled largely by not having any role players from within so the team was paying $2 or $3 Million per shot to fill those roles and suddenly the bottom 20% or so of the roster was costing around 40% of the payroll, and the role players were forced into roles as mainstays while the team turned to scrap heap filler who they get on minor league deals to be the role players.

    Keep growing those role players and stop the merry go round that leads to the Mike Stantons, Rheal Cormiers, Willy Taverases (Taverai??), Mike Lincolns and Jeff Conines of the world. This current team is getting there but they realized it a little too late and signed Willy T instead of handing the job to Chris Dickerson. I think its a big step for a team like Cincy to be able to install a guy like Stubbs or Dickerson in CF for the minimum instead of turning to low cost FA who usually have a lot of warts and cost Millions (Like Taveras, Patterson and even Freel who all cost a lot of money in a seach to fill the CF role after the team finally realized that Ken Griffey JR wasn't cutting it). That is the only way a team has enough left in the budget to keep the ones that do become something more (like Votto) or to add a contract or two for guys that do have actual talent to fill holes. The ability to look within to fill a spot is a valuable asset. Too bad role players like Stubbs and Dickerson didn't arrive a couple years sooner, it would have saved a lot of heartache around here and that's just one position.

    This year's example is behind the plate where the Reds paid $3 Million for a back-up at best caliber guy (Hernandez) instead of turning the job over to a scrap heap vet (Corky Miller). I wish the farm had a role player ready to throw at that job that would help avoid such terrible choices where either answer is inadequate. At least they developed a role player from within (Hanigan) and weren't stuck with both guys.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  3. #152
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Keep growing those role players and stop the merry go round that leads to the Mike Stantons, Rheal Cormiers, Willy Taverases (Taverai??), Mike Lincolns and Jeff Conines of the world. ...
    Wait, so are you saying that there's more than one of him? I think that thought would scare a few around here.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  4. #153
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    Wait, so are you saying that there's more than one of him? I think that thought would scare a few around here.
    Yep. Just watch some track and field event that usually are broadcast in the off hours. When you see those guys running a relay race where they pass the baton to each other, just about any of those guys is a Willy clone. Its just they seem to know that running and passing a baton is the only athletic endeavor they should attempt with a stick in their hand. They certainly don't try to hit a baseball with it in a major league game. Willy T should never again be allowed to try to use a stick in such a manner either.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  5. #154
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Willy T should never again be allowed to try to use a stick in such a manner either.
    Well Corey Patterson just got another deal to play baseball so I think there's still hope for WillyT.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  6. #155
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    Well Corey Patterson just got another deal to play baseball so I think there's still hope for WillyT.
    If I had to choose between the two I'd pick Patterson.
    Patterson is a better CFer and has some power.

  7. #156
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Patteron isn't that much of an improvement over WillyT. Is it ok if I pass on both?
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  8. #157
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    Patteron isn't that much of an improvement over WillyT. Is it ok if I pass on both?
    Sure, I'd pass on both of em myself. Just sayin' if I had to choose one Patterson is better than Taveras.

  9. #158
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    Well Corey Patterson just got another deal to play baseball so I think there's still hope for WillyT.
    Corey Patterson is about 5 notches above Willy on the talent list. Patterson is an actual plus, plus defender in CF who has actual ability instead of just running fast to make-up for not being able to judge a fly ball or take a proper route, He uses his speed to extend his range and catch balls that, speed and all, Willy can only watch go up the gap.

    Patterson also has a decent amount of power and is a threat to hit the ball out of the park. His fatal flaw is he doesn't make enough contact and when that is combined with swinging at way too many things, it kills his chances to be a decent player. Willy has that flaw as well without the other good things.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  10. #159
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    The farm was also used to acquire Brandon Phillips and Scott Rolen.
    I think it's misleading to keep repeating this assertion. Phillips was acquired for a PTBNL. I doubt many would generally define "using your farm to acquire a player" as picking up a DFA'd player for a PTBNL.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #160
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    I can see why people keep taking chances on Patterson. He shows glimpses of power, he's fast, and he actually does play really good defense. Now don't get me wrong, he's awful, but there's always that "what if" factor with him.

    Taveras, I have no idea what anybody has ever seen in him.

  12. #161
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    I think some of these Patterson/Taveras posts are very representative of the growing "grass is greener" movement on this board.

    They are both horrendous.

  13. #162
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post

  14. #163
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Corey Patterson is about 5 notches above Willy on the talent list. Patterson is an actual plus, plus defender in CF who has actual ability instead of just running fast to make-up for not being able to judge a fly ball or take a proper route, He uses his speed to extend his range and catch balls that, speed and all, Willy can only watch go up the gap.

    Patterson also has a decent amount of power and is a threat to hit the ball out of the park. His fatal flaw is he doesn't make enough contact and when that is combined with swinging at way too many things, it kills his chances to be a decent player. Willy has that flaw as well without the other good things.
    Well said.

    Patterson isn't a good player at all but he does show those glimpses at the plate that keep luring people into giving him one more try. And if all else fails, he does play a pretty decent CF.

    Taveras....well, he just flat out stinks with no redeeming qualities period.

    At the end of the day I'd rather have neither but if forced a gunpoint to pick one, it's Patterson all day every day until the end of time x 5
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  15. #164
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    I never pass on an opportunity to say that Corey Son-in-Law and Taveras both stink.
    Stop! Heisey time!

  16. #165
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Winter Meetings thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I think some of these Patterson/Taveras posts are very representative of the growing "grass is greener" movement on this board.

    They are both horrendous.
    I have to agree with Reds44, there is always the "what if" factor with Patterson. It's interesting that nearly each of Patterson's comparables on baseball-reference went on to have a couple of decent years in their early 30's. Now the trick for any club, of course, is to determine when you're going to catch that Lightning in a Bottle.

    Here's those he compares to, only one All Star in the bunch (Gaston), although two were ROY's, Agee & Hinske:

    Mike Devereaux (955)
    Gerald Williams (943)
    Mike Davis (941)
    Jim Rivera (939)
    Mark Whiten (935)
    Eric Byrnes (934)
    Tommie Agee (932)
    Eric Hinske (931)
    John Lowenstein (931)
    Cito Gaston (930)
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