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Thread: The Jocketty Files

  1. #211
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    An often used analogy, unfortunately you have to win most battles to win the war.
    Good luck on that, let me know how it works out for you.

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  3. #212
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Very true. Except the entire validation of Wayne's "success" as a GM For some involves the acquisitions of Arroyo, Hamilton and Phillips as the stars. It doesn't matter that the team's performance sank as payroll and future capital committments rose. It doesn't matter that his three biggest financial moves are now viewed as immoveable.

    And now the current GM is left with what is left. Walt hasn't had the financial resources that others have had access to. Walt or Wayne, I cannot see this team being much better off than it is. Wayne constructed almost this exact team for this year. He had these guys in place. The key players on this team had to have been in his plans. The only difference is at third.
    The teams performance sank by what 6 games, I don't know how you can call that Waynes fault, he improved this team from 1 year to the next despite what the record suggests. Depending on circumstances completely out of Walts control this 2010 team could sway anywhere 6-8 games plus or minus from last year without anything significant changing that's just the nature of things. It's been a below avg. team for many moons but what Wayne did was real tangible improvements that has made it more of a .500 team and given the time I believe he'd have put us in a position to win. Perhaps he wasn't the eventual Phil Jackson of the Reds (putting us over top) but I believe he was the Doug Collins (keeping us above water and improving us faster than a sloths pace) but Walt I believe is in over his head alot like Tim Floyd eventually was. (Sorry for the Chicago Bulls references they just made sense)

    I'll concede Wayne may not have been what I thought he could be (we'll likely never know since he wasn't allowed to finish) but at the same time Walt is a step (really multiple steps) down from him in the most critical aspect and that is player evaluation which ultimately effects us in more ways than one and makes us a worse franchise overall because of it. Oh yeah and again the money issue is Bobs department not the fans concern so you call those contracts immovable I say why move them.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 12-31-2009 at 06:33 PM.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  4. #213
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Continued - and the problem with this team is that Harang and Arroyo and Cordero are a crapshoot after 2010, if not much sooner.

    If this team wins anything this year without a couple of significant additions, Wayne will deserve a good amt of credit. Most of the key guys have his fingerprints all over them.
    Except that Walt will end up with the credit anyway, just like when he was in St. Louis and LaRussa put that team on his shoulders.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  5. #214
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Except that Walt will end up with the credit anyway, just like when he was in St. Louis and LaRussa put that team on his shoulders.
    Walt would deserve a share. He has added Rolen, parts of the bullpen and others. But this team is mostly where Wayne would have it. the only thing is that, even if they were to win something this year, the roster as it stands isn't built for the longhaul. At least the key pieces that Wayne had put together.

  6. #215
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Walt would deserve a share. He has added Rolen, parts of the bullpen and others. But this team is mostly where Wayne would have it. the only thing is that, even if they were to win something this year, the roster as it stands isn't built for the longhaul. At least the key pieces that Wayne had put together.
    Ok Ed whatever you say, nice disclaimer.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  7. #216
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Except that Walt will end up with the credit anyway, just like when he was in St. Louis and LaRussa put that team on his shoulders.
    Code:
    Aaron Harang 		
    2006 $2,350,000	   2007 $4,250,000	   2008 $6,750,000	   2009 $14,000,000
    
    Bronson Arroyo 
    2006 $3,000,000	   2007 $4,375,000	   2008 $4,575,000	   2009 $10,125,000
    
    Francisco Cordero
    2006 $4,125,000	   2007 $5,425,000	   2008 $8,625,000	   2009 $12,125,000
    
    * salaries source: ESPN
    Mario-Rijo
    Walt Jocketty became general manager April 23, 2008
    Why didn’t Walt Jocketty make deals for these players during the 2008 season or during the off season of 2008 - 2009 ?
    To move them for better pitching, payroll adjustments, and or additional major league talent?

    I don’t know the answer’s to any of those questions.

    I believe that Mr. Jocketty was informed of the financial situation of the Reds going forward since he was the special advisor to the Reds on January 11, 2008.

    “Why didn’t Walt Jocketty make deals for these players during the 2008 season or during the off season of 2008 - 2009 ? To move them for better pitching, payroll adjustments, and or additional major league talent?”

    I think that Mr. Jocketty would know some of the Reds history throughout the decade of 2000, that the ownership does not tend to make large increases to payroll with their revenue base. We look it up, we know, surely Mr. Jocketty would, and be keeping that in mind as he looks forward, making his decisions. Right or wrong?

    Seems one could argue that Mr. Jocketty wanted to hang on to experienced pitching, and that after he made the choice and decision to keep those pitchers for whatever reason, that they became his pitchers, and his contracts, and what he did or did not get in opportunity for them, is his.

    Maybe he deserves more "credit" for these pitchers and them still being a payroll burden, more than we realize?

    Walt Jocketty fired his pitching coach of the past several years and hired Price.

    Did he think that his past pitching coach was ineffective and that a better pitching coach could have gotten more out of these and other pitcher’s. Would he be thinking that going into the 2010 season and beyond for these pitcher’s and other’s? If that is true, then, doesn’t keeping these pitcher’s make them his decision and choice, and making them his pitching and his contracts by his choice and decisions? Parts of that have to have some truth in the thinking process, otherwise, why fire the previous pitching coach and hire the one he did?

    It seems to come down to whether you have them and pay them or not, that someone has to pitch for the Reds, and if the fans and Reds are unhappy with the pitching, and outcomes for the team, that the Reds would have to have better pitching then, now, and going forward. The availability, those contracts, the length of those contracts and the overall benefit and risk would have to be fully considered when replacing them or letting them go, then and now.

    If we looked back through the extended stats of the Reds pitching dating back for years, even back to 2003, 2004, 2005, and compare forward, who could blame him? For hanging on to them.

    * source pitching stats ESPN
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/...ype=2&type=reg
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 01-03-2010 at 10:47 PM.

  8. #217
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Ok Ed whatever you say, nice disclaimer.
    Not a disclaimer. The truth. Look at the money committed to 2009-2010. Then look at the money committed after that. This was Wayne's window. After that, he loses roughly $120MM in investments. If he wasn't putting his eggs in this basket, then what was he doing?

  9. #218
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Walt Jocketty became general manager April 23, 2008
    Why didnít Walt Jocketty make deals for these players during the 2008 season or during the off season of 2008 - 2009 ?
    To move them for better pitching, payroll adjustments, and or additional major league talent?

    I donít know the answerís to any of those questions.
    Name the teams who added material amounts of payroll from the trading deadline of 2008 to the present.

    Then, using that subset of teams, we'll analyze their needs and see if they needed guys like Harang, Arroyo and Cordero.

    Go.

  10. #219
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Now we have the answer. We can now say, it has been asked and answered. Certainly took long enough to get an answer in this thread. Walt's answer is about as good as it gets.

    "It was a move to keep our team as much intact as we can," Jocketty said. "We're still not in position to add more to the club. We think we have a pretty good club as it is.
    Thanks WJ.


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