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Thread: The Jocketty Files

  1. #136
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    How much of an effect did not having any pitching in prior years have on Castellini's win now edict and decisions that were made?

    Code:
    2006 	80 82 .494 	3.5 	749 	801   -52  	$ 60,909,519
    2005 	73 89 .448 	27 	820 	889   -69  	$ 61,892,583 
    2004 	76 86 .469 	29 	750 	907  -157  	$ 46,615,250 
    2003 	69 93 .426 	19 	694 	885  -191  	$ 59,355,667
    That 2006 team showed "the team improved" too, in the runs allowed and games behind.
    What are you talking about? When you criticized the Reds for letting Dunn go and watching their slash numbers decrease because of it, I was just pointing out that it was a little of a narrow view since you were only focusing on the effect on the offense.

    But I was also saying that, maybe, the decision was already made to spend his savings on Arroyo and Harang and others. Maybe.

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  3. #137
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Walt Jocketty Teflon Man
    For now he should be, unless he does something that is going to materially impact the future of this franchise in a negative way.

    But if/when Walt is given $100MM or so to spend and he ends up botching it, then I think the teflon comes off.

  4. #138
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    For now he should be, unless he does something that is going to materially impact the future of this franchise in a negative way.

    But if/when Walt is given $100MM or so to spend and he ends up botching it, then I think the teflon comes off.
    Don't be too hard on him.

  5. #139
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    My "the team improved" response was because of the whole OPS/OBP/SLG lowering comment. I couldn't care less if certain stats go down. If those stats went down and the team's performance goes up, then who cares?
    Well that is really something to ponder. Just how does that work?

    Maybe the team's defensive/pitching performance increased more than the offense decreased due to Adam's departure. If that is the case, then he should have been let go.
    Maybe the competition scored less runs overall in 2009 too? Maybe that helped to inflate the positive look for the Reds defense?

    And the signing of good pitchers at a decent cost line is laughable. Cordero got the richest contract in history for a reliever. Is that really a decent cost? Arroyo was extended 2 years before his way below market value current contract was over. Which killed his value on the openmarket and made them take on unnecessary risk. They gave Arroyo $12MM per year years in advance. Were they scared that Bronson was going to turn into a $20MM pitcher in those two years? The downside of that contract was way more than the upside, especially since there was no upside. And I had less of an issue with Harang at the time, but obviously that hasn't worked out too well to this point.
    And the alternatives were, and at what cost or price to the teams finances and team performances without them? The part you always selectively omit.

    But Jocketty walked into a crappy situation at a very difficult economic time. He has been given zero payroll flexibility and has a few definite payroll cloggers on the books that have nothing to do with him.
    And what GM before Jocketty did not walk into a "crappy situation" with financial constraints? Not to mention bad pitching, bad defense, weak minor league, little inconsequential "crappy situations" like those on top of the financial contstraints?

    Did you miss those extreme payroll comparisons that Bowden, O'Brien, Krivsky and even Jocketty has had to work under against the competitions spending? and spending season after season, not just one season? So who is it that did not have a crappy situation to work with? Last year in arguments you pretty much gleamed over those excessive payroll comparison postings, and ignored them seemingly in your responses, was that because you could not reconcile the disparities for Reds GM's and at the same time argue in defense of your positions?

    Jocketty has the highest payroll in the history of the Reds and their GM's so how much worse was it for them, if it is bad for him in your perception?

    Teams with payrolls like Cincy's cannot just add contracts willy nilly. There needs to be a plan in place and we didn't see much of one in the past. It appears that the plan now is to get some of this money off the books (through trades or expiration) and look to (hopefully) add when money loosens up. But that's to be seen, I guess.
    It has been almost ten or more years that all gm's of the Reds have operated under an inadequate money supply to compete with teams that did have the funds available. That is not just an isolated case in arguments for Jocketty.

    No plan ? so you think those men before Jocketty including ownership are idiots? I think not. Where did many of these players come from today that you indicate that the "the team improved", to improve with, if the predecessors were just out "willy nilly" obtaining, trading for and drafting then with no thought or reason to the future during their tenure?

    Neither of us will make a willy nilly optimistic prediction for this team, because neither of us believes that it has improved to a point of being relevent in comparison to the competition regardless of who the GM is. Don't you agree?
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-30-2009 at 12:14 PM.

  6. #140
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    Don't be too hard on him.
    When someone's hands are tied by the financial environment and current payroll, it's kind of a tough task to do something to help the team in the immediate future.

    Just my opinion.

  7. #141
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Walt Jocketty can do no wrong.

    The Dunn trade was awful. Awful. The Reds traded a .900 OPS bat for a 5th starter, an injury prone AA pitcher, and a career minor leaguer. I would've rather had the two draft picks, or if he accepts arbitration then good, we get another year of Dunn.

    I'm sick and tired of the excuses for Jocketty. He's been a HUGE failure with the Reds. Those happy with his performance must be pleased with how the Reds organization has fared in the last decade.

  8. #142
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Walt Jocketty can do no wrong.

    The Dunn trade was awful. Awful. The Reds traded a .900 OPS bat for a 5th starter, an injury prone AA pitcher, and a career minor leaguer. I would've rather had the two draft picks, or if he accepts arbitration then good, we get another year of Dunn.

    I'm sick and tired of the excuses for Jocketty. He's been a HUGE failure with the Reds. Those happy with his performance must be pleased with how the Reds organization has fared in the last decade.
    If you like other stats, the Reds traded a guy who had less value last year than Luis Castillo and Skip Schumaker in 2009 while costing $10MM per year for those three same guys.

    Pretty good haul, if you ask me.

  9. #143
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    When someone's hands are tied by the financial environment and current payroll, it's kind of a tough task to do something to help the team in the immediate future.

    Just my opinion.
    Not if he can evaluate talent, he could do what the man before him did with financial constraints and make some shrewd moves on the cheap both in trades and of the FA variety. That he has 2 starting pitchers making under market rates shouldn't be handicapping him, ya gotta pay some people sooner or later and no amount of hindsight can change that. Oh I forgot that one guy makes too much money, that is what has done poor Walt in.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  10. #144
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Pretty good haul, if you ask me.
    Yeah, what an excellent haul. The Reds landed nothing in return for one of the most feared hitters in the game. What a haul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  11. #145
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    For now he should be, unless he does something that is going to materially impact the future of this franchise in a negative way.

    But if/when Walt is given $100MM or so to spend and he ends up botching it, then I think the teflon comes off.
    Such a long leash from a guy who had a chocker collar around Krivsky 24/7, I find the whole patience act a tad ironic myself.

    Walt's on the electric fence program with me.

  12. #146
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    I think some people believe the Reds could not have won in 2008 or 2009, even if they had executed in the offseasons perfectly with what was available to a small market team with the payroll of the Cincinnati Reds. i.e. they believe a theoretically perfect general manager could not have won given the circumstances the Reds face.

    I do not believe that. The Reds have some building blocks, more than some teams, the key is adding something to what they already have without taking on a lot of payroll and also using the resources they have in the best way possible. I don't think Walt Jocketty has done a good job on either front.

    He's not as big a disaster as Dan O'Brien or Jim Bowden in his lesser years, but he's not good either. A good GM would have this team contending in a seriously weak division.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

  13. #147
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Walt Jocketty can do no wrong.
    It sure seems that way.

    The funny part is some of Jocketty's most vocal defenders were DO's and WK's harshest critics.

  14. #148
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    What are you talking about? When you criticized the Reds for letting Dunn go and watching their slash numbers decrease because of it, I was just pointing out that it was a little of a narrow view since you were only focusing on the effect on the offense.

    But I was also saying that, maybe, the decision was already made to spend his savings on Arroyo and Harang and others. Maybe.
    Come on. You know as well as I do that I put the Griffey, Dunn comments in there in response to anticipating your chronic overkill on the three pitcher contracts and the burden that all expensive long term contracts put on any organization, and not just the Reds. But to cause you to respond or ignore the money that Jocketty should have had and been able to use. So what did he do with the money from Dunn and Griffey to improve the team?

    Even though I never seem to see you suggest that O'Brien and Krivsky had some contracts and a very poor talent pool handed to them too in the same poorly funded environment to work within in. If I had not tossed out the Griffey, Dunn names speaking to the money, someone else would have, maybe they already did, but I think you ignore those weights that were around the previous GM's strapped by ownership.

    My only real issue with your points of view is that I see an incongruent and double standard in them for Jocketty, anti-Krivsky and O'Brien. You don't seem to measure the same basic factors for each of them with the same scales, justly. None of the GM's produced a team over .500 under the ownership groups, what a coincidence. What’s the cliché? “you get what you pay for”, and in this case none of the GM’s had the money to pay for it, like lucky Walt when he was in St. Louis and building his money bought reputation.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-30-2009 at 12:31 PM.

  15. #149
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Such a long leash from a guy who had a chocker collar around Krivsky 24/7, I find the whole patience act a tad ironic myself.

    Walt's on the electric fence program with me.


    I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices it.
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 12-30-2009 at 12:31 PM.

  16. #150
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    It sure seems that way.

    The funny part is some of Jocketty's most vocal defenders were DO's and WK's harshest critics.
    Yep.


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