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Thread: The Jocketty Files

  1. #151
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    It sure seems that way.

    The funny part is some of Jocketty's most vocal defenders were DO's and WK's harshest critics.
    I think they do that solely to protect their past arguments agains those GM's, now they have to cover for Walt and Dusty, or admit that they and even I were not quite right in our judgements of the previous GM's. Just like we are not going to be right on all things now, we can't be, I don't think. We don't know everything, no one does. Then there is the little thing of interpreting what they and we know, and making the right choice and decisions from it all about the seasons to come with no certainty in any of it.

    But Jocketty has a plan, he "improved the team". I guess the ones before them will be judged and condemned for not having a working knowledge of a predictable crystal ball next.

    Plus most of us ignore that the real bosses, Castellini and Lindner, had a lot of power, say, and signed off on most deals. Enough power to hire and fire. We don't know what those two did or said for sure, but we know they influenced decisions for each of the GM's.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-30-2009 at 12:41 PM.

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  3. #152
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    What are you talking about? When you criticized the Reds for letting Dunn go and watching their slash numbers decrease because of it, I was just pointing out that it was a little of a narrow view since you were only focusing on the effect on the offense.

    But I was also saying that, maybe, the decision was already made to spend his savings on Arroyo and Harang and others. Maybe.
    That is a prime example of what I am talking about in the double standards, and evasive responses. Go back to the original post and actually answer the question that headed the post, instead of answering with a pretentious question in response. I think there is a reason why you selectively omit answering many of us. Just like many of us there are holes in our remarks and arguments so we uh um, don't see certain points that we can't respond to and make our points look valid, when they are flawed and we know it.

    Originally Posted by Spring~Fields
    How much of an effect did not having any pitching in prior years have on Castellini's win now edict and decisions that were made?


    Code:
    2006 	80 82 .494 	3.5 	 749 	 801   -52  	$ 60,909,519
    2005 	73 89 .448 	27 	 820 	 889   -69  	$ 61,892,583 
    2004 	76 86 .469 	29 	 750 	 907  -157  	$ 46,615,250 
    2003 	69 93 .426 	19 	 694 	 885  -191  	$ 59,355,667
    That 2006 team showed "the team improved" too, in the runs allowed and games behind.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-30-2009 at 12:52 PM.

  4. #153
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    I think they do that solely to protect their past arguments agains those GM's, now they have to cover for Walt and Dusty, or admit that they and even I were not quite right in our judgements of the previous GM's. Just like we are not going to be right on all things now, we can't be, I don't think. We don't know everything, no one does.

    But Jocketty has a plan, he "improved the team". I guess the ones before them will be judged and condemned for not having a working knowledge of a predictable crystal ball next.

    Plus most of us ignore that the real bosses, Castellini and Lindner, had a lot of power, say, and signed off on most deals. Enough power to hire and fire. We don't know what those two did or said for sure, but we know they influenced decisions for each of the GM's.


    I'm not about to claim that I'm always right or that I know everything. I had my fair share of disagreements with previous GM's and made my feelings known. I'm just having a hard time understanding how Walt can be given so much credit, when in all honesty he hasn't done very much in terms of improving this team for now or the future.

  5. #154
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    When someone's hands are tied by the financial environment and current payroll, it's kind of a tough task to do something to help the team in the immediate future.
    I must be clear out to lunch. What am I missing here?

    That standard and measurement for assessing or excusing Jocketty is true, but is false or cannot be applied with equal meaning and weight in the influences on GM’s and their past choices and decisions? They did not inherit a bad situation, or a worse situation than what Jocketty has?

    Go back to the payrolls of the good ole days under Bowden, see where the Reds use to be within range of the other teams, (Bowden even looked good) they had some money to do something with in comparison.

    Then track them forward to 2000 where player cost started going up a lot, then cross check the Reds payrolls with the other teams, each season building upon season, even in the same division, you will soon see where Bowden and those to follow lost ground.

    Each cause and effect decisions and choices in seasons led to the next, with each inheriting a bad situation for them to overcome with not a lot to work with.

    Well, lucky Walt was prospering under St. Louis dollars back in those years, before coming to this cash strapped environment. Now he is out scraping the dumpsters for the Tevaras, Nix and Burkes of the baseball world, just like Bowden, O’Brien, and Krivsky before him, but they don’t get the same measurements to judge them as Jocketty. Bowden was the only one that had any length of time to get something achieved, he did achieve, before the well went dry, then he faded away.

  6. #155
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Walt Jocketty can do no wrong.
    Sure he can he signed WT.

    The Dunn trade was awful. Awful. The Reds traded a .900 OPS bat for a 5th starter, an injury prone AA pitcher, and a career minor leaguer. I would've rather had the two draft picks, or if he accepts arbitration then good, we get another year of Dunn.
    Dunn wasn't coming back. The Reds weren't going to offer him arbitration in fear of him accepting and having to play him way over market value. The Diamondbacks didn't offer him arbitration. But then again the legend of Adam Dunn continues to grow.

    I'm sick and tired of the excuses for Jocketty. He's been a HUGE failure with the Reds. Those happy with his performance must be pleased with how the Reds organization has fared in the last decade.
    Yup he has been a HUGE failure. He hasn't blown up the nucleus of the team. He has greatly improved the defense. He has shown patience with the young players. Just because he didn't bring back YOUR favorite players doesn't mean he has been a failure. Jocketty has earned the right for the Reds to be patient. If Krivsky was such a great GM why has he bounced around a couple of organizations and never been in the running for a GM job since he left?

  7. #156
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    It sure seems that way.

    The funny part is some of Jocketty's most vocal defenders were DO's and WK's harshest critics.
    And vice versa.

  8. #157
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Yup he has been a HUGE failure. He hasn't blown up the nucleus of the team. He has greatly improved the defense. He has shown patience with the young players. Just because he didn't bring back YOUR favorite players doesn't mean he has been a failure. Jocketty has earned the right for the Reds to be patient. If Krivsky was such a great GM why has he bounced around a couple of organizations and never been in the running for a GM job since he left?
    That has nothing to do it with it so stop acting like it does. Jocketty has been a huge failure to this point. Besides Scott Rolen, who else has Jocketty brought in that actually contributed?

    If you want to play that card, if Jocketty was such a great GM then why did the Cardinals get rid of him?

  9. #158
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    He has greatly improved the defense.
    Was Dickerson, Votto, Bruce, Hanigan, Phillips, Stubbs, and Janish players that Walt Jocketty acquired or were they from previous general managers tenures that happened to mature into being good defenders under the transitions of time?

    Pitching, Volquez, Cueto, Arroyo, Harang, Bailey and most of the bullpen, did those come from the work and hand of Jocketty or were they a product of the previous GM’s?

    The player resources that he traded for Rolen, did those players come from his work?

  10. #159
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I'm not about to claim that I'm always right or that I know everything. I had my fair share of disagreements with previous GM's and made my feelings known. I'm just having a hard time understanding how Walt can be given so much credit, when in all honesty he hasn't done very much in terms of improving this team for now or the future.
    I think we all can identify double standards, which are no standards at all.

    Shoot I always thought that you were the exception and correct most of the time.

  11. #160
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Such a long leash from a guy who had a chocker collar around Krivsky 24/7, I find the whole patience act a tad ironic myself.

    Walt's on the electric fence program with me.
    Not really.

    My main beef with Wayne was that he wasn't committing one way or the other. He was spending money hand over fist when the timing was absolutely wrong. It didn't take a genius to determine that this team wasn't built for 2006-2009 without drastic measures, and all we saw were a bunch of longshots, medicore FAs and one immense contract given to a closer.

    The right moves were to either floor it by spending money and dealing prospects or to hit the breaks and deal vets while scaling back payroll until the youth was ready. We got neither.

    So now we see the youth getting closer and we have a bunch of money tied up in guys who no one wants. Wonderful. The way I see it, Walt is doing what he can do in this environment. To me, the move is to try and get rid of some of these guys and, if you can't, let them expire. Sounds like this is happening. I also don't see much in the way of long-term wasted money going out the door, so that is also a plus. Hopefully the available funds are put to use properly in the next few years.

    I got the same reaction when I was being so negative about Wayne after he made a lot of his moves. So I feel ok if I am in the minority. You know what they say about the masses.

  12. #161
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Besides Scott Rolen, who else has Jocketty brought in that actually contributed?
    How did Rhodes and Masset do this year?

  13. #162
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Yeah, what an excellent haul. The Reds landed nothing in return for one of the most feared hitters in the game. What a haul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    He was so feared that he was dealt by one team for what you describe as basically nothing, was let go by the acquiring team for nothing and then got zero interest in the FA market and ended up in baseball hell.

    I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you are overrating him just a bit.

  14. #163
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    How did Rhodes and Masset do this year?
    Woohoo! Two relievers. Sign Walt to an extension!!!!!

  15. #164
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Woohoo! Two relievers. Sign Walt to an extension!!!!!
    Just making the discussion a little more balanced. And accurate.

    And it took your boy about 20 transactions and $60MM to find any relievers as productive as these guys were last year.

  16. #165
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    He was so feared that he was dealt by one team for what you describe as basically nothing, was let go by the acquiring team for nothing and then got zero interest in the FA market and ended up in baseball hell.

    I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you are overrating him just a bit.
    Six straight seasons with 38+ home runs. Career .903 OPS and 132 OPS+. Has played in 152+ games in seven of his eight full seasons. I think you are underrating him just a bit.


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