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Thread: The Jocketty Files

  1. #181
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. You are becoming more incoherent by the post. Try being a little more concise or lucid in your posts and I'll be happy to respond.
    I know better. See you at the finish line in 2010

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  3. #182
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    I don't get the whole Walt vs. Jock debate.

    Seriously, Kriv didnt work, and Jock has done basically nothing to turn the ship around. He has sat on his hands and hoped his predecessor's work will be good enough. In the meantime he isn't doing anything to ruin that plan.

    But honestly, neither guy appears to have done a particularly good job of turning this franchise around from the oblivion. There isn't a clear direction this team is taking for the next 5+ years.

  4. #183
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Letting Dunn go was a Jocketty move. that decision and it's ramifications are as relevant as any move that he made.
    Fine then, make a comment about the trade and move on.

  5. #184
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I don't get the whole Walt vs. Jock debate.

    Seriously, Kriv didnt work, and Jock has done basically nothing to turn the ship around. He has sat on his hands and hoped his predecessor's work will be good enough. In the meantime he isn't doing anything to ruin that plan.

    But honestly, neither guy appears to have done a particularly good job of turning this franchise around from the oblivion. There isn't a clear direction this team is taking for the next 5+ years.
    Your candid honesty is refreshing.
    I agree with you, and I also agree that what his predecessor's did, is what Jocketty is counting on.

    It just seems strange that the other’s were fired after such a short time, and Jocketty who is running on their dime, is counting on what they produced.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-30-2009 at 06:28 PM.

  6. #185
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I don't get the whole Walt vs. Jock debate.

    Seriously, Kriv didnt work, and Jock has done basically nothing to turn the ship around. He has sat on his hands and hoped his predecessor's work will be good enough. In the meantime he isn't doing anything to ruin that plan.

    But honestly, neither guy appears to have done a particularly good job of turning this franchise around from the oblivion. There isn't a clear direction this team is taking for the next 5+ years.
    I agree.

  7. #186
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I don't get the whole Walt vs. Jock debate.

    Seriously, Kriv didnt work, and Jock has done basically nothing to turn the ship around. He has sat on his hands and hoped his predecessor's work will be good enough. In the meantime he isn't doing anything to ruin that plan.

    But honestly, neither guy appears to have done a particularly good job of turning this franchise around from the oblivion. There isn't a clear direction this team is taking for the next 5+ years.
    I think it is difficult for a GM to turn much around without money in such a short period of time. One GM saw his toxic assets expire and had over $100MM to spend as he wished. This GM should be afforded the same opportunity.

  8. #187
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Code:
    	W   L  PCT 	GB 	RS 	RA    DIFF 	Payroll-USA
    2009 	78 84 .481 	13 	673 	723   -50  	$ 73,558,500 
    2008 	74 88 .457 	23.5 	704 	800   -96  	$ 74,117,695 
    2007 	72 90 .444 	13 	783 	853   -70  	$ 68,904,980 
    2006 	80 82 .494 	3.5 	749 	801   -52  	$ 60,909,519
    2005 	73 89 .448 	27 	820 	889   -69  	$ 61,892,583 
    2004 	76 86 .469 	29 	750 	907  -157  	$ 46,615,250 
    2003 	69 93 .426 	19 	694 	885  -191  	$ 59,355,667 
    2002 	78 84 .481 	19 	709 	774   -65 	$ 45,050,390 
    
    Offense
    RK	Year	 BA   OBP  SLG  OPS 	RS		Payroll-USA	
    11th	2009	.247 .318 .394 .712 	673		$ 73,558,500
    12th	2008	.247 .321 .408 .729 	704		$ 74,117,695 
    7th	2007	.267 .335 .436 .772 	783		$ 68,904,980
    9th	2006	.257 .336 .432 .768 	749		$ 60,909,519
    1st	2005	.261 .339 .446 .785 	820		$ 61,892,583 
    10th	2004	.250 .331 .418 .749 	750		$ 46,615,250 
    13th	2003	.245 .318 .395 .713 	694		$ 59,355,667 
    9th	2002	.253 .330 .408 .738 	709		$ 45,050,390

  9. #188
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    And?

  10. #189
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Who is under market? Harang? Arroyo? Seriously?

    And Wayne's knack for "evaluating talent" is way overblown. He didn't find Josh Hamilton in the cornfields and didn't find Phillips on the sandlot. These guys were former top 5 prospects that he took a shot on. And the Hamilton move has been totally blown out of proportion. These acquisitons worked out well but there is more to GMing than taking flyers on flamed out top prospects.
    Both below market value when the deals were done and most agreed they were wise decisions by the team. You probably would disagree with that notion I don't. You can't go back later and start calling the deals bad because you haven't gotten Cy Young performances out of them. You also can't just deal away good pitching when you have it so you must pay them, ya know. Or you end up like the Pirates and the like scrounging around for pitching because few arms you got back panned out and most didn't. To have 2 200 IP arms under contract at reasonable deals and maintain top/middle of the rotation production is huge. I suppose you'll be complaining in 5 years that Jay Bruce and whomever else shouldn't have gotten big deals either, just keep trading them like the Pirates do. One more time I'll say it I really don't give a crap what these GM's spend that's Bob Castellini's department.

    As for Waynes ability to pick up cheap talent it doesn't matter how he got them only that he did. Where's Walts former high round picks at?
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  11. #190
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I don't get the whole Walt vs. Jock debate.

    Seriously, Kriv didnt work, and Jock has done basically nothing to turn the ship around. He has sat on his hands and hoped his predecessor's work will be good enough. In the meantime he isn't doing anything to ruin that plan.

    But honestly, neither guy appears to have done a particularly good job of turning this franchise around from the oblivion. There isn't a clear direction this team is taking for the next 5+ years.
    Ya see I disagree with the fact that Wayne didn't turn it around. Just take away his additions and tell me how many wins this team would have had the last few years and if Walt (or Wayne had he been given the proper time) had added to that group we'd be battling for the playoffs right now. How is the future of this team without those additions? If wayne never gets fired I feel confident he'd have a better product on the field right now and not spend anymore to have done it.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  12. #191
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Both below market value when the deals were done and most agreed they were wise decisions by the team. You probably would disagree with that notion I don't. You can't go back later and start calling the deals bad because you haven't gotten Cy Young performances out of them. You also can't just deal away good pitching when you have it so you must pay them, ya know. Or you end up like the Pirates and the like scrounging around for pitching because few arms you got back panned out and most didn't. To have 2 200 IP arms under contract at reasonable deals and maintain top/middle of the rotation production is huge. I suppose you'll be complaining in 5 years that Jay Bruce and whomever else shouldn't have gotten big deals either, just keep trading them like the Pirates do. One more time I'll say it I really don't give a crap what these GM's spend that's Bob Castellini's department.

    As for Waynes ability to pick up cheap talent it doesn't matter how he got them only that he did. Where's Walts former high round picks at?
    Not sure where to begin, but I kind of disagree with most of this. I'm not advocating turning over the roster on a continuous basis a la Pittsburgh. I'm advocating taking advantage of a situation that Cincy was in a few years ago. Properly timing a situation where you have an influx of youth coming while the major league roster struggles. Jay Bruce should be one of the cornerstones of this franchise for years, but if he and Votto are the only productive guys on a 70 win roster, becoming more expensive and older while the team is at least 3-4 years away, I would definitely be pro-trade. If it makes the team better.

  13. #192
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Ya see I disagree with the fact that Wayne didn't turn it around. Just take away his additions and tell me how many wins this team would have had the last few years and if Walt (or Wayne had he been given the proper time) had added to that group we'd be battling for the playoffs right now. How is the future of this team without those additions? If wayne never gets fired I feel confident he'd have a better product on the field right now and not spend anymore to have done it.
    Take away Wayne's additions and last year's team would have been plus $40MM or so in free cash. So it would be impossible to figure that out.

    Plus, the team would have been in a position to trade Arroyo while his value was still high and with a very attractive contract, would have had a 2nd rd pick for not signing Cordero, would have had more tradeable assets in Harang and others, etc.

    Kind of a difficult exercise.

  14. #193
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Take away Wayne's additions and last year's team would have been plus $40MM or so in free cash. So it would be impossible to figure that out.

    Plus, the team would have been in a position to trade Arroyo while his value was still high and with a very attractive contract, would have had a 2nd rd pick for not signing Cordero, would have had more tradeable assets in Harang and others, etc.

    Kind of a difficult exercise.
    So on a team without said players what good does that 40 million do? You don't want it spent, except on 16-20 yr olds who may never pan out what's a bigger waste of funds wins or hopes? In the meantime the product that means something is unwatchable and who knows what you get out of those kids and when. If the timing isn't right for those guys to show up at the same time we need to start all over again according to your philosophy. Sorry to me that's a really poor view of how to build a club.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  15. #194
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    So on a team without said players what good does that 40 million do? You don't want it spent, except on 16-20 yr olds who may never pan out what's a bigger waste of funds wins or hopes? In the meantime the product that means something is unwatchable and who knows what you get out of those kids and when. If the timing isn't right for those guys to show up at the same time we need to start all over again according to your philosophy. Sorry to me that's a really poor view of how to build a club.
    There are a lot of ifs in this game. Maybe this plan doesn't work for whatever reason. Maybe Bailey blows out his shoulder or Votto goes down the tubes. But we also saw the other side, the spend big portions of your payroll on a few players while the rest of the roster is still in the infant stage. That didn't really work out either.

  16. #195
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Take away Wayne's additions and last year's team would have been plus $40MM or so in free cash. So it would be impossible to figure that out.

    Plus, the team would have been in a position to trade Arroyo while his value was still high and with a very attractive contract, would have had a 2nd rd pick for not signing Cordero, would have had more tradeable assets in Harang and others, etc.

    Kind of a difficult exercise.
    In this hypothetical conjecture of your's. How would you have answered the following questions if we are to believe that the Reds would be any better off in finance or the on the field product as you seem to suggest and propose in hindsight?

    You take away the pitchers that you have in question. You indicate that you have 40m free on the books.

    You have a mandated budget range of $ 60,909,519 - $ 74,117,695

    Who is the replacement starting pitching, and what is the replacement cost that will effect your "free" 40m?
    Where are these replacement pitchers coming from?
    Will they be of equal or less than talent and performance?

    What performance do you anticipate from those replacements for Arroyo, Harang and Cordero?

    How much time would be expended searching for and being able to attract or to grow within the organization the replacement starters and relievers? How many seasons? To the quality level of an Harang, Arroyo or Cordero on the days of their signing the contracts that you have brought into question?

    What dynamics will be working to effect the bullpen with the loss of those innings from Arroyo and Harang?

    Who will close, at what cost, and at what effect on the other bullpen members, and what would be the tangible and intangible cost and effects?

    With the tangible and intangible replacement cost and opportunities in question, what will be the overall effect on the Reds player resources, moving forward within the mandated budgetary constraints?

    How will those decisions and choices that you make effect future movement of players either coming in or going out of the Reds organization?

    Backing up the time to the calendar date where you have decided to either not sign them or to trade them, what kind of product will the fans have to endure without those given pitchers so named above?

    What net effect will that have on attendance and other associated revenues?

    How much of the budget or limited funds that you , other’s and I complain about were earmarked for a move to Arizona, a new scoreboard or other organizational plans that also are in a budget of the Cincinnati Reds organization. How did those effect the overall financial picture when it came to making out the budgets for operations?

    Were the GM's then or now expected to ignore an asset that is often a given in the game of baseball, "that pitching wins", and then somehow at a later date just to be able to arbitrarily pick them off a tree at will, such as implied throughout your arguments that seem to ignore and fail to address the replacement, opportunity to replace them, or lack of opportunity in an environment that is in high demand for pitcher's, with very limited quality starting pitching available to most major league teams with the exception of those that are in greater demographic markets?

    In liquidity or perhaps we could say discretionary spending, you have indicated 40 million , what is it now after your replacements?

    In addition you have the following
    $ 60,909,519 - $ 74,117,695 to spend on the remaining 22 players plus you have to replace the pitching that you have disposed of in one manner or another.

    Range:
    $ 60,909,519 /25 players $2,436,380.76 per player
    or
    $ 74,117,695 /25 players $2,964,707.8 per player

    How will you be filling out your roster, what level of players and at what cost in starting pitching, bullpen pitcher’s, starting players and bench players? This will give us some indication on the talent and pitching that you would have to bring in to entertain the fans. Quality pitching will reduce the numbers above that you have to spend on the other individual players.

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. You are becoming more incoherent by the post. Try being a little more concise or lucid in your posts and I'll be happy to respond.
    Pretty clear, concise, and straight forward, should be pretty easy for you to respond in like manner as you have intimated to me above.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-30-2009 at 11:57 PM.


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