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Thread: The Jocketty Files

  1. #106
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    I didn't like the Taveras signing any better than anybody else, but he's an above average CF, despite his taking bad routes to the ball--which is not unheard of among good centerfielders. The infield defense at the end of the season--Rolen, Janish, Phillips, Votto--was as good as it's been in Cinti for years. This year's team, with Stubbs in CF, Bruce in RF, and Nix, then Votto in LF, and very good catching with Hanigan, decent catching with Hernandez, will be one of the best defensive teams in the major leagues--if not the best.
    What makes you believe Votto will ever play left field?
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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  3. #107
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    What makes you believe Votto will ever play left field?
    Yonder Alonso.

  4. #108
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Yonder Alonso.
    I don't think Alonso and Votto will ever play together for the Reds. One of them will be dealt. Just MO.

  5. #109
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If the entire grade of a GM was based solely on who you acquired, without factoring in contracts, money spent, W/L record, drafting, planning for the future, etc, then I would agree with you.
    I agree.

    What's the GM's job at the end of the day?

    Win as many games as possible. It doesn't matter how you do it.

    The Reds record:

    Wayne 2006: 80-82
    Wayne 2007: 72-90
    Wayne/Walt 2008: 74-88
    Walt 2009: 78-84

    During Wayne's tenure, the W-L record got worse.

    2008 was largely Wayne's team, although Walt did cut some bad contracts and made a few moves.

    Look at 2009 though.. Despite some key injures and being forced to jettison Dunn and Jr (big part of the offense), the W-L record improved. Yes, even despite Tavaras, the team improved.

    Walt basically walked into a 90 loss team which had its best offensive player (Dunn) as a pending FA. I don't see how that's a good situation.

    Progress last year was not as good as I hoped. I'm not saying Walt is the savior, but he has a solid plan. Wayne was a more exciting GM, that's for sure.. every month, he'd pick up another Gauardaro or Cormier to throw up against the wall.. Wayne liked to take the high risks and make big bold moves. The problem is that while some worked out, others worked out horribly. Wayne seemed to like to gamble on the injury prone guys and cross his fingers..

    Walt has been more active in Latin America and aggressively signing draft picks than any Reds GM in my lifetime. For once, the Reds aren't just giving lip service to rebuilding the farm. They are putting their money where their mouth is. Hopefully they pick the right guys.

    Walt has also made some fine moves. Masset was a good trade. Rolen was a good trade. Rhodes was a good pickup. Hernandez was a great move (especially after suffering through Bako, etc)

    While I don't expect the Reds to contend next year, I expect them to improve in the W-L department in 2010.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  6. #110
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I agree.

    What's the GM's job at the end of the day?

    Win as many games as possible. It doesn't matter how you do it.

    The Reds record:

    Wayne 2006: 80-82
    Wayne 2007: 72-90
    Wayne/Walt 2008: 74-88
    Walt 2009: 78-84

    During Wayne's tenure, the W-L record got worse.

    2008 was largely Wayne's team, although Walt did cut some bad contracts and made a few moves.

    Look at 2009 though.. Despite some key injures and being forced to jettison Dunn and Jr (big part of the offense), the W-L record improved. Yes, even despite Tavaras, the team improved.

    Walt basically walked into a 90 loss team which had its best offensive player (Dunn) as a pending FA. I don't see how that's a good situation.

    Progress last year was not as good as I hoped. I'm not saying Walt is the savior, but he has a solid plan. Wayne was a more exciting GM, that's for sure.. every month, he'd pick up another Gauardaro or Cormier to throw up against the wall.. Wayne liked to take the high risks and make big bold moves. The problem is that while some worked out, others worked out horribly. Wayne seemed to like to gamble on the injury prone guys and cross his fingers..

    Walt has been more active in Latin America and aggressively signing draft picks than any Reds GM in my lifetime. For once, the Reds aren't just giving lip service to rebuilding the farm. They are putting their money where their mouth is. Hopefully they pick the right guys.

    Walt has also made some fine moves. Masset was a good trade. Rolen was a good trade. Rhodes was a good pickup. Hernandez was a great move (especially after suffering through Bako, etc)

    While I don't expect the Reds to contend next year, I expect them to improve in the W-L department in 2010.
    What exactly is Walt's plan? It can't be going young or else he wouldn't have traded his top pitching prospect for a 34-year old 3B. I really don't feel like arguing this again, I'm just curius to hear what his plan is because I don't see a plan.

    And the activity in Latin America started under Wayne. The Reds signed Juan Duran in early March of 2008 while Krivsky was still GM.

  7. #111
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    I can't think of one deal that Jocketty has made to improve the Reds for the future, not one.
    Jr for Nick Masset. There's one at least.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  8. #112
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post
    I don't think Alonso and Votto will ever play together for the Reds. One of them will be dealt. Just MO.
    My thought too.

    Alonso was drafted because the Reds thought he was the best player on the board at the time. Either he or Votto will be traded. Nothing wrong with that plan. I want the Reds to start drafting the best available player, regardless of need. Drafting based on need caused the Reds to take Larson over Berkman. (The Reds said they passed on Berkman because they considered him an "AL player")
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  9. #113
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    What exactly is Walt's plan? It can't be going young or else he wouldn't have traded his top pitching prospect for a 34-year old 3B. I really don't feel like arguing this again, I'm just curius to hear what his plan is because I don't see a plan.
    Walt's plan was to work on the bullpen, let the youth develop, upgrade the position players (offensively and defensively). Starting pitching was a relative strength he inherited, so he tried to build on that.

    Picking up Rolen was part of the plan to get a RH bat and improve the defense. I'm not going to argue either, but let's set aside the cost of the transaction for a moment. I think everyone agrees Rolen is a pretty big upgrade over EdE.

    So whether the Reds "win" the trade or not kind of depends on what Zach Stewart becomes. IMO, good teams figure out which prospects to trade and which ones to keep. If you can trade a prospect while he's overrated, you get a net gain of talent. Now, only time will tell if the Reds or Jays were right about Stewart. But I like to see a team willing to trade some prospects for talent, as opposed to just hoarding prospects (keeping them all).

    I have faith the Reds can find another Zach Stewart in next year's draft. If they can't do that, all is lost anyhow. I guess my point is this.. Even if Stewart becomes a solid closer or solid starting pitcher, the Reds' farm system is going have to keep on finding guys like him in order to have long term successs.. If the Reds' entire future hinged on Zach Stewart, we were in severe trouble.


    And the activity in Latin America started under Wayne. The Reds signed Juan Duran in early March of 2008 while Krivsky was still GM.
    Ok, then I stand corrected, but I am pretty sure that Walt did more in this area than Wayne did.

    For all the grief Walt gets for Tavares, Wily did significantly less payflex damage than the many goofs Wayne made.

    Wayne hit a few HRs (Hamilton, etc) but racked up a lot of strikeouts too (Maj, Stanton, Bako).. Other than Taveras, Walt has not added any absolutely horrible starting players to the ML roster.

    Remember Wayne's lineups which had Keppinger at SS, EdE at 3b, Bako at C, and Patterson at CF? I loved Dunn, but he was basically a 1b/DH playing LF. Defense has improved tremendously under Walt. Edit: Obviously Patterson was a great defender, but his offense was a black hole.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  10. #114
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I agree.

    What's the GM's job at the end of the day?

    Win as many games as possible. It doesn't matter how you do it.

    The Reds record:

    Wayne 2006: 80-82
    Wayne 2007: 72-90
    Wayne/Walt 2008: 74-88
    Walt 2009: 78-84

    During Wayne's tenure, the W-L record got worse.

    2008 was largely Wayne's team, although Walt did cut some bad contracts and made a few moves.

    Look at 2009 though.. Despite some key injures and being forced to jettison Dunn and Jr (big part of the offense), the W-L record improved. Yes, even despite Tavaras, the team improved.

    Walt basically walked into a 90 loss team which had its best offensive player (Dunn) as a pending FA. I don't see how that's a good situation.

    Progress last year was not as good as I hoped. I'm not saying Walt is the savior, but he has a solid plan. Wayne was a more exciting GM, that's for sure.. every month, he'd pick up another Gauardaro or Cormier to throw up against the wall.. Wayne liked to take the high risks and make big bold moves. The problem is that while some worked out, others worked out horribly. Wayne seemed to like to gamble on the injury prone guys and cross his fingers..

    Walt has been more active in Latin America and aggressively signing draft picks than any Reds GM in my lifetime. For once, the Reds aren't just giving lip service to rebuilding the farm. They are putting their money where their mouth is. Hopefully they pick the right guys.

    Walt has also made some fine moves. Masset was a good trade. Rolen was a good trade. Rhodes was a good pickup. Hernandez was a great move (especially after suffering through Bako, etc)

    While I don't expect the Reds to contend next year, I expect them to improve in the W-L department in 2010.

    I think the improved record was a result of the kids growing up and not much that Walt did specifically. This team was all out horrid prior to Janish, Stubbs, Maloney and Bailey assuming key roles. Timing was in Walt's favor as these guys just weren't ready previously. If anything, Walt held the team back in the first half by playing his best CF in LF and signing the worst player in baseball to play CF. Walt's best move was dealing Norris Hopper for Corky Miller. The pitching staff straightened out when Ramon went on the DL and Corky joined the team. That is when we saw Arroyo catch fire, Bailey mature and Cueto rebound. Guys like Justin Lehr and Kip Wells even pitched well. Maloney was much improved down the stretch and even in AAA after Corky arrived.

    Hernandez was an improvement over Bako/Ross/Javy no doubt, but he was not a good catcher IMO. The deal for Rolen was an overpayment that left the team improved somewhat in the short run at the expense of long term improvements. The deal for Masset was excellent as was the signing of Rhodes. Gomes was a great signing, but he limited his effectiveness by messing with Taveras in CF and the domino effect that pushed Dickerson/Hairston to LF instead of Center where they belonged and keeping Gomes in AAA. Then he follows it up by cutting Gomes loose. This team may have finished above .500 had walt not screwed the first half messing with Willie and the chain reaction that his horrible existence on the roster created. When the pitching went south in mid-season we saw possibly the worst baseball we've seen this decade (and that is saying something). The pitching eventually rebounded thankfully and that had a lot to do with Walt's guys (Taveras, Hernandez and his steadfast belief in A-GON) finally being out of the picture and guys from the organization who were here prior to Walt stepping up. Walt's astute contribution was dealing for Corky and the short term burst from paying dearly for Rolen.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  11. #115
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    What exactly is Walt's plan? It can't be going young or else he wouldn't have traded his top pitching prospect for a 34-year old 3B. I really don't feel like arguing this again, I'm just curius to hear what his plan is because I don't see a plan.

    And the activity in Latin America started under Wayne. The Reds signed Juan Duran in early March of 2008 while Krivsky was still GM.
    Walt has traded one prospect, thats it 1 prospect, of note during his tenure as Reds GM. The quicker you get over the loss of Zack Stewart the happier of a Reds fan you will be.

  12. #116
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post
    I don't think Alonso and Votto will ever play together for the Reds. One of them will be dealt. Just MO.
    Then it will be Votto who will be dealt. Actually I don't think either will be dealt. I think Alonso will hit his way onto the team; he will be too good not to play.

  13. #117
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    And the activity in Latin America started under Wayne. The Reds signed Juan Duran in early March of 2008 while Krivsky was still GM.
    It took Wayne a long time to get back into LatAm after he ran Almaraz out of town. Let's not act like they were signing guys by the bushel while he was here.

  14. #118
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Then it will be Votto who will be dealt. Actually I don't think either will be dealt. I think Alonso will hit his way onto the team; he will be too good not to play.
    If that's the case, Votto will probably get dealt. I really can't see them moving him to LF. But I've been wrong before.

  15. #119
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think the improved record was a result of the kids growing up and not much that Walt did specifically. This team was all out horrid prior to Janish, Stubbs, Maloney and Bailey assuming key roles.
    But at the same time, we had key youngsters like Bruce and Volquez vastly under perform. We lost Dunn too. Harang had a disappointing year.
    Really, I think Walt's transactions had a lot more impact on the record than the 4 youngsters you named. Surely, losing Dunn more than offset the contributions of at least Stubbs and Janish.. Losing Volquez more than offset what Bailey gave us.

    How about giving Walt a little bit of credit for solidifying the defense at several positions and generally making good decisions? IIRC, a chart showed that the Run differential improved by 40-50 runs. That's legit improvement.



    Timing was in Walt's favor as these guys just weren't ready previously. If anything, Walt held the team back in the first half by playing his best CF in LF and signing the worst player in baseball to play CF. Walt's best move was dealing Norris Hopper for Corky Miller. The pitching staff straightened out when Ramon went on the DL and Corky joined the team. That is when we saw Arroyo catch fire, Bailey mature and Cueto rebound. Guys like Justin Lehr and Kip Wells even pitched well. Maloney was much improved down the stretch and even in AAA after Corky arrived.
    But Walt did a great job of improving the team at the bottom end.
    He got rid of guys like Castro, Keppinger, Stanton, Bako, etc.. He wasn't perfect (Wily, EdE extension), but he did a lot better than his predecesor.

    IIRC, the team played really well while Hernandez was healthy. Granted, correlation doesn't prove anything, but it's not as if Hernandez was a millstone and Walt got lucky he got hurt.. I don't know if that's what you are trying to say, but it seems like it.



    The deal for Rolen was an overpayment that left the team improved somewhat in the short run at the expense of long term improvements.
    The loss of Roenocke isn't going to hurt the team longterm. Getting rid of EdE
    helped the team. I don't get all the crying over Zach Stewart. Walt has a pretty good track record of trading prospects/young at the peak of their hype and getting good value for them. Good teams selectively trade their prospects. Bad teams hoard all their prospects and see most of them fizzle out.







    This team may have finished above .500 had walt not screwed the first half messing with Willie and the chain reaction that his horrible existence on the roster created.
    Actually, in April/March Wily T had a respectable 351 OBP. He started off well.
    That earned him an extended audtion. It's defensible, especially considering that Dickerson started slow, Nix hadn't played more than 20 ML games since 2005, and Gomes was questionable defensively and offensively (at the time).




    When the pitching went south in mid-season we saw possibly the worst baseball we've seen this decade (and that is saying something). The pitching eventually rebounded thankfully and that had a lot to do with Walt's guys (Taveras, Hernandez and his steadfast belief in A-GON) finally being out of the picture and guys from the organization who were here prior to Walt stepping up. Walt's astute contribution was dealing for Corky and the short term burst from paying dearly for Rolen.
    AGon was not Walt's guy. If AGon was Walt's guy, why did he dump him before the season ended? Seems like Walt inherited a bad contract and was compelled to give AGon playing time to shine him up for a trade, which he did.
    Isn't that what we want GMs to do with bad contracts? Shine them up and dump them ASAP? It's not as if Janish was a young impact player being blocked. Sure, he's an upgrade, but not a huge one.

    I guess I don't see how Hernandez going down and Corky coming up was that good of a thing, but I usually don't think the catcher has that much of an impact on the game the pitcher pitches, especially in the modern game when the coaches can micromanage pitch selection from the bench. I understand if you disagree though.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  16. #120
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    It took Wayne a long time to get back into LatAm after he ran Almaraz out of town. Let's not act like they were signing guys by the bushel while he was here.
    The Reds were signing the same amount of guys as everyone else was.... the issue is were they offering as much as other teams and if so, were the players choosing other teams? I mean if the Reds were never offering top dollar to the top guys it wouldn't matter if Almaraz was around or not because they weren't going to be signing with them.


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