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Thread: The Jocketty Files

  1. #121
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Was it Krivsky or Walt who had the brilliant idea to let Jorge Cantu leave for nothing right before the year he had 30 HR and 100 RBI?

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  3. #122
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Was it Krivsky or Walt who had the brilliant idea to let Jorge Cantu leave for nothing right before the year he had 30 HR and 100 RBI?
    What was the money discussion going on behind closed doors between Castellini and Krivsky?

    I think Krivsky let him go. Those Reds just don't see Votto in left I guess. I kind of would have liked to see Cantu been around, but they had Dunn then too didn't they?

    What did Walt get for Dunn anyway, I forgot some of that fodder's names. Better yet what did he replace Dunn with? Tevaras or Nix ?

  4. #123
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    What was the money discussion going on behind closed doors between Castellini and Krivsky?

    I think Krivsky let him go. Those Reds just don't see Votto in left I guess. I kind of would have liked to see Cantu been around, but they had Dunn then too didn't they?

    What did Walt get for Dunn anyway, I forgot some of that fodder's names. Better yet what did he replace Dunn with? Tevaras or Nix ?
    A catcher who couldnt catch or hit. A pitcher more well known for his bat, and a lottery ticket that (I believe) hasnt stayed/gotten healthy.
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  5. #124
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyder View Post
    A catcher who couldnt catch or hit. A pitcher more well known for his bat, and a lottery ticket that (I believe) hasnt stayed/gotten healthy.
    Well then what did he do with all that money he freed up by dumping Dunn, and lowering team OBP, SLG, and OPS and getting rid of Griffey? You know a couple contracts that Krivsky inherited. Jocketty should have made hay with that additional amount.

  6. #125
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    But at the same time, we had key youngsters like Bruce and Volquez vastly under perform. We lost Dunn too. Harang had a disappointing year.
    Really, I think Walt's transactions had a lot more impact on the record than the 4 youngsters you named. Surely, losing Dunn more than offset the contributions of at least Stubbs and Janish.. Losing Volquez more than offset what Bailey gave us.

    How about giving Walt a little bit of credit for solidifying the defense at several positions and generally making good decisions? IIRC, a chart showed that the Run differential improved by 40-50 runs. That's legit improvement.
    Dumping Dunn goes to the heart of the matter. The team chose to ignore the middle of the order and start the season with no power in CF and little power in LF. Having two OF spots filled with Judy hitters won't work unless you have significant offense from unlikely spots like SS, C or 2B. The Reds didn't have that.

    The defense was solidified, but only after the season was lost playing WJ's first choices which were Willy in CF, A-Gon at SS (it was obvious last year at this time that the team needed to address the SS spot) and Ramon were gone. The pitching improved and I think that the defense was part of it, but that run differential improved when the starters stop giving up 5 runs in 6 innings (or worse) each night.

    Walt even signed EdE to a two year deal before dumping him. They were all his guys IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    But Walt did a great job of improving the team at the bottom end.
    He got rid of guys like Castro, Keppinger, Stanton, Bako, etc.. He wasn't perfect (Wily, EdE extension), but he did a lot better than his predecesor.

    IIRC, the team played really well while Hernandez was healthy. Granted, correlation doesn't prove anything, but it's not as if Hernandez was a millstone and Walt got lucky he got hurt.. I don't know if that's what you are trying to say, but it seems like it.
    Agree that the purgings of those guys are among his best moves (David Ross especially). But what I remember was the pitching going south about the time Votto came back and Ramon going behind the plate more often and the poor spell ended about when Ramon went on the shelf. I could be wrong, I haven't checked the game logs, but it sure seems to coincide.




    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    The loss of Roenocke isn't going to hurt the team longterm. Getting rid of EdE
    helped the team. I don't get all the crying over Zach Stewart. Walt has a pretty good track record of trading prospects/young at the peak of their hype and getting good value for them. Good teams selectively trade their prospects. Bad teams hoard all their prospects and see most of them fizzle out.
    The thing about Stewart is that he was the team's only real pitching prospect that could be a top guy in a deal. He wouldn't bring back a star caliber difference maker on his own, but team's don't acquire those without a good pitching talent to be part of the package. The team has many prospects but a package of say Stubbs, Alonso and Valaika won't bring back a difference maker unless its a rental and would probably only net a role player for the long term. Adding some one like Wood probably wouldn't do it either. IMO Walt fired his only bullet. I even credit him for picking-off a bad guy with it, but the bad guy he got was a mid-level thug and not the strategic target required to change the balance of power. I agree that Rolen improved the team, but its not enough and doesn't really build the core in the way necessary. W/O a pitching prospect who sits in the top 100 prospect list, I don't think this team has what it takes to get a guy who could reshape things unless Bailey or Cueto is included and that would be counter productive. IMO a Stewart deal needed to get some one of that caliber or he should have just been kept around to be used in a deal later or to see if he could follow-up his 2009 with a strong 2010 and become some one of that caliber himself. Maybe later in the year, when Leake is eligible to be dealt, Walt can get back in the game.

    As for his track record in these deals, how is that Haren for Mulder deal looking?




    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Actually, in April/March Wily T had a respectable 351 OBP. He started off well.
    That earned him an extended audtion. It's defensible, especially considering that Dickerson started slow, Nix hadn't played more than 20 ML games since 2005, and Gomes was questionable defensively and offensively (at the time).
    Willy wasn't signed to audition. He was willed CF and the plan for a pair of slap hitters in LF and CF at the same time was a huge part of what was wrong with the offense. I fear we'll see a repeat in 2010 with Stubbs and Dickerson. Stubbs needs to retain his power for it to have a chance to work, but it still leaves the middle of the order a bat short most of the time.



    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    AGon was not Walt's guy. If AGon was Walt's guy, why did he dump him before the season ended? Seems like Walt inherited a bad contract and was compelled to give AGon playing time to shine him up for a trade, which he did.
    Isn't that what we want GMs to do with bad contracts? Shine them up and dump them ASAP? It's not as if Janish was a young impact player being blocked. Sure, he's an upgrade, but not a huge one.
    Walt slept through last off-season where SS was concerned and when questioned said A-Gon was the answer. It was a mistake that most could see coming.




    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I guess I don't see how Hernandez going down and Corky coming up was that good of a thing, but I usually don't think the catcher has that much of an impact on the game the pitcher pitches, especially in the modern game when the coaches can micromanage pitch selection from the bench. I understand if you disagree though.
    The team simply seemed to pitch better while Ramon wasn't back there for an extended period. Again, I haven't checked the game logs, but I remeber the team wasting a lot of good pitching while Votto was out and Ramon was on 1B. When Votto came back and Ramon started catching again, the pitching hit the wall. The starters seemed to come out of their funk when Ramon went down. I think resigning Ramon will prove to be as bad as signing Willy was last year. Hope I'm wrong.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  7. #126
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Walt might be taking some undeserved blame in this thread but he is also getting a lot of praise and credit for some things he had nothing to do with.

  8. #127
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Well then what did he do with all that money he freed up by dumping Dunn, and lowering team OBP, SLG, and OPS and getting rid of Griffey? You know a couple contracts that Krivsky inherited. Jocketty should have made hay with that additional amount.
    Firstly, the team improved.

    But forget about that. How much did Arroyo's, Harang's and Cordero's contracts have to do with it? Do we even know?

  9. #128
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyder View Post
    A catcher who couldnt catch or hit. A pitcher more well known for his bat, and a lottery ticket that (I believe) hasnt stayed/gotten healthy.
    Not a bad haul for one month of a guy who apparently was not in much demand.

  10. #129
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Not a bad haul for one month of a guy who apparently was not in much demand.
    For a guy that you could have offered Arby and gotten 2 draft picks for anyways. And I would GUARENTEE that if Dunn been offered arby he'd been insane to accept it considering he was already run out on a rail by a certain radio personality and by callers to a certain fruit phone along with some posters here who think by defense alone you can replace Dunn...

    I wasnt impressed with the deal and still not. Krivsky had a much better eye at finding talent in deals like this, his downfall came when in 07 the Reds played well over their heads to start and he had to try to take a craptastic farm system and make a Van Gohn and fix the pen. He tried and it wasnt enough setting higher expectations in 08.
    Last edited by Slyder; 12-30-2009 at 10:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by moewan View Post
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  11. #130
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyder View Post
    For a guy that you could have offered Arby and gotten 2 draft picks for anyways. And I would GUARENTEE that if Dunn been offered arby he'd been insane to accept it considering he was already run out on a rail by a certain radio personality and by callers to a certain fruit phone along with some posters here who think by defense alone you can replace Dunn...

    I wasnt impressed with the deal and still not. Krivsky had a much better eye at finding talent in deals like this, his downfall came when in 07 the Reds played well over their heads to start and he had to try to take a craptastic farm system and make a Van Gohn and fix the pen. He tried and it wasnt enough setting higher expectations in 08.
    So he wouldn't have accepted due to a radio guy, even though the market was in the tank and he basically had zero interest in the FA market?

    Not.

  12. #131
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Not a bad haul for one month of a guy who apparently was not in much demand.
    To be fair, it was a month-and-a-half of Dunn. But on top of that, his offensive numbers as a Diamondback were worse than four of his last five years as a Red. Also, he played a lot of right field, where his defense was even more of a negative. It might be worth mentioning that the Diamondbacks didn't even make the playoffs nor did they get draft pick compensation for him. I'm sure they'd take that trade back if they could.

  13. #132
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Firstly, the team improved.

    But forget about that. How much did Arroyo's, Harang's and Cordero's contracts have to do with it? Do we even know?
    The team improved?

    Then what’s all the complaining about, you and everyone else should be singing the praises of O’Brien and Krivsky, the ones that have paved the road of gold for the lucky Jocketty, and especially the flawless Bob Castellini and impeccable Dusty Baker.

    So can we count on you for a prediction of 90 wins this coming season? 88? 85?

    Or will it be more of blaming the signing of what were good pitchers at a decent cost, without even the slightest hint from you in your selective posts of what the Reds could have done, or where they would have been and what would they be now without those three pitchers?

    90 wins ? Or your excuses for Jocketty and Baker in 2010 ?
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-30-2009 at 11:25 AM.

  14. #133
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    The team improved?

    Then what’s all the complaining about, you and everyone else should be singing the praises of O’Brien and Krivsky, the ones that have paved the road of gold for the lucky Jocketty, and especially the flawless Bob Castellini and impeccable Dusty Baker.

    So can we count on you for a prediction of 90 wins this coming season?

    Or will it be more of blaming the signing of what were good pitchers at a decent cost, without even the slightest hint of what the Reds could have done, or where they would have been and would they be without those three pitchers?

    90 wins ? Or excuses for Jocketty and Baker in 2010 ?
    My "the team improved" response was because of the whole OPS/OBP/SLG lowering comment. I couldn't care less if certain stats go down. If those stats went down and the team's performance goes up, then who cares? Maybe the team's defensive/pitching performance increased more than the offense decreased due to Adam's departure. If that is the case, then he should have been let go.

    And the signing of good pitchers at a decent cost line is laughable. Cordero got the richest contract in history for a reliever. Is that really a decent cost? Arroyo was extended 2 years before his way below market value current contract was over. Which killed his value on the open market and made them take on unnecessary risk. They gave Arroyo $12MM per year years in advance. Were they scared that Bronson was going to turn into a $20MM pitcher in those two years? The downside of that contract was way more than the upside, especially since there was no upside. And I had less of an issue with Harang at the time, but obviously that hasn't worked out too well to this point.

    I make no excuses for Baker. But Jocketty walked into a crappy situation at a very difficult economic time. He has been given zero payroll flexibility and has a few definite payroll cloggers on the books that have nothing to do with him. There is talented youth in place but there was poor planning done for this stage. Instead of clearing payroll in order to open up possibilities in 2010 and beyond, we chose to add significant payroll in 2007-2008 and now are paying the price.

    Teams with payrolls like Cincy's cannot just add contracts willy nilly. There needs to be a plan in place and we didn't see much of one in the past. It appears that the plan now is to get some of this money off the books (through trades or expiration) and look to (hopefully) add when money loosens up. But that's to be seen, I guess.

  15. #134
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Walt Jocketty Teflon Man

  16. #135
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: The Jocketty Files

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post

    But forget about that. How much did Arroyo's, Harang's and Cordero's contracts have to do with it? Do we even know?
    How much of an effect did not having any pitching in prior years have on Castellini's win now edict and decisions that were made?

    Code:
    2006 	80 82 .494 	3.5 	749 	801   -52  	$ 60,909,519
    2005 	73 89 .448 	27 	820 	889   -69  	$ 61,892,583 
    2004 	76 86 .469 	29 	750 	907  -157  	$ 46,615,250 
    2003 	69 93 .426 	19 	694 	885  -191  	$ 59,355,667
    That 2006 team showed "the team improved" too, in the runs allowed and games behind.

    Code:
    	W   L  PCT 	GB 	RS 	RA    DIFF 	Payroll-USA
    2009 	78 84 .481 	13 	673 	723   -50  	$ 73,558,500 
    2008 	74 88 .457 	23.5 	704 	800   -96  	$ 74,117,695 
    2007 	72 90 .444 	13 	783 	853   -70  	$ 68,904,980
    Where did most of the players that produced the improvement in runs allowed, in 2008, and 2009 come from? Other than Rhodes and a lame catcher?
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-30-2009 at 11:46 AM.


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