Was it Krivsky or Walt who had the brilliant idea to let Jorge Cantu leave for nothing right before the year he had 30 HR and 100 RBI?
Was it Krivsky or Walt who had the brilliant idea to let Jorge Cantu leave for nothing right before the year he had 30 HR and 100 RBI?
What was the money discussion going on behind closed doors between Castellini and Krivsky?
I think Krivsky let him go. Those Reds just don't see Votto in left I guess. I kind of would have liked to see Cantu been around, but they had Dunn then too didn't they?
What did Walt get for Dunn anyway, I forgot some of that fodder's names. Better yet what did he replace Dunn with? Tevaras or Nix ?
Dumping Dunn goes to the heart of the matter. The team chose to ignore the middle of the order and start the season with no power in CF and little power in LF. Having two OF spots filled with Judy hitters won't work unless you have significant offense from unlikely spots like SS, C or 2B. The Reds didn't have that.
The defense was solidified, but only after the season was lost playing WJ's first choices which were Willy in CF, A-Gon at SS (it was obvious last year at this time that the team needed to address the SS spot) and Ramon were gone. The pitching improved and I think that the defense was part of it, but that run differential improved when the starters stop giving up 5 runs in 6 innings (or worse) each night.
Walt even signed EdE to a two year deal before dumping him. They were all his guys IMO.
Agree that the purgings of those guys are among his best moves (David Ross especially). But what I remember was the pitching going south about the time Votto came back and Ramon going behind the plate more often and the poor spell ended about when Ramon went on the shelf. I could be wrong, I haven't checked the game logs, but it sure seems to coincide.
The thing about Stewart is that he was the team's only real pitching prospect that could be a top guy in a deal. He wouldn't bring back a star caliber difference maker on his own, but team's don't acquire those without a good pitching talent to be part of the package. The team has many prospects but a package of say Stubbs, Alonso and Valaika won't bring back a difference maker unless its a rental and would probably only net a role player for the long term. Adding some one like Wood probably wouldn't do it either. IMO Walt fired his only bullet. I even credit him for picking-off a bad guy with it, but the bad guy he got was a mid-level thug and not the strategic target required to change the balance of power. I agree that Rolen improved the team, but its not enough and doesn't really build the core in the way necessary. W/O a pitching prospect who sits in the top 100 prospect list, I don't think this team has what it takes to get a guy who could reshape things unless Bailey or Cueto is included and that would be counter productive. IMO a Stewart deal needed to get some one of that caliber or he should have just been kept around to be used in a deal later or to see if he could follow-up his 2009 with a strong 2010 and become some one of that caliber himself. Maybe later in the year, when Leake is eligible to be dealt, Walt can get back in the game.
As for his track record in these deals, how is that Haren for Mulder deal looking?
Willy wasn't signed to audition. He was willed CF and the plan for a pair of slap hitters in LF and CF at the same time was a huge part of what was wrong with the offense. I fear we'll see a repeat in 2010 with Stubbs and Dickerson. Stubbs needs to retain his power for it to have a chance to work, but it still leaves the middle of the order a bat short most of the time.
Walt slept through last off-season where SS was concerned and when questioned said A-Gon was the answer. It was a mistake that most could see coming.
The team simply seemed to pitch better while Ramon wasn't back there for an extended period. Again, I haven't checked the game logs, but I remeber the team wasting a lot of good pitching while Votto was out and Ramon was on 1B. When Votto came back and Ramon started catching again, the pitching hit the wall. The starters seemed to come out of their funk when Ramon went down. I think resigning Ramon will prove to be as bad as signing Willy was last year. Hope I'm wrong.
All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!
Walt might be taking some undeserved blame in this thread but he is also getting a lot of praise and credit for some things he had nothing to do with.
For a guy that you could have offered Arby and gotten 2 draft picks for anyways. And I would GUARENTEE that if Dunn been offered arby he'd been insane to accept it considering he was already run out on a rail by a certain radio personality and by callers to a certain fruit phone along with some posters here who think by defense alone you can replace Dunn...
I wasnt impressed with the deal and still not. Krivsky had a much better eye at finding talent in deals like this, his downfall came when in 07 the Reds played well over their heads to start and he had to try to take a craptastic farm system and make a Van Gohn and fix the pen. He tried and it wasnt enough setting higher expectations in 08.
Last edited by Slyder; 12-30-2009 at 10:18 AM.
Originally Posted by teamselig
To be fair, it was a month-and-a-half of Dunn. But on top of that, his offensive numbers as a Diamondback were worse than four of his last five years as a Red. Also, he played a lot of right field, where his defense was even more of a negative. It might be worth mentioning that the Diamondbacks didn't even make the playoffs nor did they get draft pick compensation for him. I'm sure they'd take that trade back if they could.
The team improved?
Then what’s all the complaining about, you and everyone else should be singing the praises of O’Brien and Krivsky, the ones that have paved the road of gold for the lucky Jocketty, and especially the flawless Bob Castellini and impeccable Dusty Baker.
So can we count on you for a prediction of 90 wins this coming season? 88? 85?
Or will it be more of blaming the signing of what were good pitchers at a decent cost, without even the slightest hint from you in your selective posts of what the Reds could have done, or where they would have been and what would they be now without those three pitchers?
90 wins ? Or your excuses for Jocketty and Baker in 2010 ?
Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-30-2009 at 11:25 AM.
My "the team improved" response was because of the whole OPS/OBP/SLG lowering comment. I couldn't care less if certain stats go down. If those stats went down and the team's performance goes up, then who cares? Maybe the team's defensive/pitching performance increased more than the offense decreased due to Adam's departure. If that is the case, then he should have been let go.
And the signing of good pitchers at a decent cost line is laughable. Cordero got the richest contract in history for a reliever. Is that really a decent cost? Arroyo was extended 2 years before his way below market value current contract was over. Which killed his value on the open market and made them take on unnecessary risk. They gave Arroyo $12MM per year years in advance. Were they scared that Bronson was going to turn into a $20MM pitcher in those two years? The downside of that contract was way more than the upside, especially since there was no upside. And I had less of an issue with Harang at the time, but obviously that hasn't worked out too well to this point.
I make no excuses for Baker. But Jocketty walked into a crappy situation at a very difficult economic time. He has been given zero payroll flexibility and has a few definite payroll cloggers on the books that have nothing to do with him. There is talented youth in place but there was poor planning done for this stage. Instead of clearing payroll in order to open up possibilities in 2010 and beyond, we chose to add significant payroll in 2007-2008 and now are paying the price.
Teams with payrolls like Cincy's cannot just add contracts willy nilly. There needs to be a plan in place and we didn't see much of one in the past. It appears that the plan now is to get some of this money off the books (through trades or expiration) and look to (hopefully) add when money loosens up. But that's to be seen, I guess.
How much of an effect did not having any pitching in prior years have on Castellini's win now edict and decisions that were made?
That 2006 team showed "the team improved" too, in the runs allowed and games behind.Code:2006 80 82 .494 3.5 749 801 -52 $ 60,909,519 2005 73 89 .448 27 820 889 -69 $ 61,892,583 2004 76 86 .469 29 750 907 -157 $ 46,615,250 2003 69 93 .426 19 694 885 -191 $ 59,355,667
Where did most of the players that produced the improvement in runs allowed, in 2008, and 2009 come from? Other than Rhodes and a lame catcher?Code:W L PCT GB RS RA DIFF Payroll-USA 2009 78 84 .481 13 673 723 -50 $ 73,558,500 2008 74 88 .457 23.5 704 800 -96 $ 74,117,695 2007 72 90 .444 13 783 853 -70 $ 68,904,980
Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-30-2009 at 11:46 AM.
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