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Thread: Why cant bp play SS again?

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    Member dunner13's Avatar
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    Why cant bp play SS again?

    Looking at the numbers from last year Bp would have had the 7th best OPS of any SS in the NL. Better then reyes,stephen drew, furcal and rollins. He was originally a shortstop and was moved to second not because he couldnt play there but because the indians had some guy named omar vizquel. There is no reason to think he wouldnt be at least an average SS and most likely much better then average defensively. This would allow us to hand the 2nd base job to Frazier, who I recently saw compared to Jeff Kent. This seems like a much better option then starting Paul Janish who will be lucky to hit .250

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    Greatness In The Making RedLegSuperStar's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    it would seem.. heck we all thought that last year when orlando hudson was on the market. it makes to much sense but this organization likes mediocracy
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLegSuperStar View Post
    it would seem.. heck we all thought that last year when orlando hudson was on the market. it makes to much sense but this organization likes mediocracy
    Or they know (or think they know) something we do not.

    I have to believe if the Reds thought Brandon would be an above average defensive shortstop they would have moved him by now. IIRC he was given a 2-day trial near the end of the 2005 season after Lopez was traded and Clayton injured/stunk. However they they quickly switched him back to 2b and played Aurillia/Clayton/Castro/Olmedo there the rest of the way. And then in the offseason they signed AGon.

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    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    The FO party line seems to be that they think the move would weaken two positions. At least defensively.

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    Joe Oliver love-child Blimpie's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    Nothing to back this up, but--personally--I think it is BP who is resisting the move.

    Perhaps he feels he has a better chance to amass Gold Gloves at 2B than he does at SS.
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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLegSuperStar View Post
    it would seem.. heck we all thought that last year when orlando hudson was on the market. it makes to much sense but this organization likes mediocracy
    Awe, you are making it too simple, it's no fun if it is easy and works out.

    Orlando Hudson, 2B, Age 32, Bats B, Salary 2009: $3,364,877
    Source - ESPN
    2009 .357 .417 .774 vs LH .361 .493 .854 vs RH .356 .392 .748
    2008 .367 .450 .817 vs LH .336 .385 .721 vs RH .382 .480 .862
    2007 .376 .441 .817 vs LH .338 .430 .768 vs RH .388 .445 .833

    4x Gold Glove Award winner (2005, 2006, 2007, 2009)

    I would just hate to see the Reds weaken second base, and to obtain some OBP against right handed and left handed pitching with this gold glove guy, someone to hit in front of Votto and those following him. That would be terrible to watch. Mr. Baker would have to adjust his batting order superstitions, if Phillips played ss he would have to bat second, or instead a second baseman that has some switch hitting on base percentage like Hudson.

    It would not shock me that, and if one of the reason’s Phillips can’t play short is due to CF batting leadoff and ss batting second, and Phillips after all is the cleanup batter, what a conundrum that would be for the master lineup fabricator. Aw, no, Mr. Baker could not bat a second baseman in Hudson second.

    How much was it that they paid for Tevaras? How much was that saving’s with Rolen’s new contract? Well, perhaps they can find Jerry Hairston Jr. or another like him to play ss, they seemed comfortable with Hairston. Some how they presume those types can play ss better than the quick handed and athletic Phillips could.

    I think Hudson is still on the market too.

    Veteran experienced gold glover, friends with Brandon Phillips, we have Mr. Baker who claimed to be able to attract players. I wonder why we never ever read even the slightest rumor of Hudson and the Reds, not even a false rumor. I wonder if they even called to see what kind of money and situation he was looking for?

    Three former gold glovers in the infield, boy that would be tough to watch, just brutal.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-29-2009 at 12:12 PM.

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    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    Quote Originally Posted by dunner13 View Post
    Looking at the numbers from last year Bp would have had the 7th best OPS of any SS in the NL. Better then reyes,stephen drew, furcal and rollins. He was originally a shortstop and was moved to second not because he couldnt play there but because the indians had some guy named omar vizquel. There is no reason to think he wouldnt be at least an average SS and most likely much better then average defensively. This would allow us to hand the 2nd base job to Frazier, who I recently saw compared to Jeff Kent. This seems like a much better option then starting Paul Janish who will be lucky to hit .250
    From what I've read, it's Frazier who's not ready for second base. He's ready for LF and 3rd, but he struggled at 2nd last year. I'm sure Doug could clear it up, but that what I thought the case was.
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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    From what I've read, it's Frazier who's not ready for second base. He's ready for LF and 3rd, but he struggled at 2nd last year. I'm sure Doug could clear it up, but that what I thought the case was.
    I am not questioning your comment at all, but have you ever noticed how many of those prospects canít play ss, 2B, or 3B or are not ready when reading about them for one reason or another and that they all seemed to be being groomed for left field. Somehow I gather that something just isnít going to fly. I often get that the Reds don't think player x or y can man that infield position at the major league level when they move them around to the outfield.

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    Member dunner13's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    For whatever reason it seems like if a guy can hit he automatically cant play SS, but with frazier even if hes not ready for second. They could at least say we are going to move BP and we expect frazier to be ready by next year so we are going to sign Hudson for a year. Or frazier will be ready by june so whoever is going to play until then, at least that would be a plan as opposed to what we are doing now. Which seems to be nothing with nothing planned for the future either.

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    Quote Originally Posted by dunner13 View Post
    For whatever reason it seems like if a guy can hit he automatically cant play SS, but with frazier even if hes not ready for second. They could at least say we are going to move BP and we expect frazier to be ready by next year so we are going to sign Hudson for a year. Or frazier will be ready by june so whoever is going to play until then, at least that would be a plan as opposed to what we are doing now. Which seems to be nothing with nothing planned for the future either.
    Yeah and Votto canít play left, I would hate to see a bat like his in left, though any other ying yang can seem to play left though for the Reds, of course none of the younger guys can play first base, that would be insurmountable and disrupt their practicing left field in the minors. Oh where is Howsam and Sparky when you need some thinking out of the box?

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    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    I think there are a couple of good reasons for keeping him at 2B. First, I think a lot of it has to do with money. If you were to move Phillips to SS, his range would be merely average, but his bat would become more valuable. When it comes to paying a player, you normally pay a lot more for his bat than his glove, so a 2B with a decent bat and elite defense is going to be a bit cheaper than a SS with a decent glove and above-average bat. In other words, it's much cheaper to pay a guy who's being compared to Orlando Hudson instead of Jimmy Rollins.

    Another reason I can come up with is Phillips' age. Around the age of 28, a shortstop's range will start to decline and often continue to decline as his career goes on. Phillips' range as a SS would be average to begin with, and as he starts his defensive decline, it would only get worse, cancelling out the value of his bat at a more rapid rate.

    Meanwhile, the Reds have guys like Paul Janish, Miguel Rojas, Zack Cozart, Chris Valaika, Billy Hamilton, D.D. Gregorius, Junior Arias, and will probably acquire other high-end SS prospects. If BP is actually in the team's long term plans, it just makes sense to keep him at 2B until one of those guys is ready.

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    Another reason I can come up with is Phillips' age. Around the age of 28, a shortstop's range will start to decline and often continue to decline as his career goes on. Phillips' range as a SS would be average to begin with, and as he starts his defensive decline, it would only get worse, cancelling out the value of his bat at a more rapid rate.
    I think I can see your assumptions, but speaking of age as a factor, what about these old timers if age was a part of the Reds theory?

    Jerry Hairston Jr Age 33 2008, 2009 Alex Gonzalez Age 32, 2007, 2009, Rich Aurilia Age 38 2005-2006. Of course they were somewhat younger then, but older than a Phillips.

    The Reds found a justification when it fit, for them in the past.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 12-29-2009 at 01:17 PM.

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    Meanwhile, the Reds have guys like Paul Janish, Miguel Rojas, Zack Cozart, Chris Valaika, Billy Hamilton, D.D. Gregorius, Junior Arias, and will probably acquire other high-end SS prospects. If BP is actually in the team's long term plans, it just makes sense to keep him at 2B until one of those guys is ready.
    What percentage of minor league prospects actually make it to the major leagues? What percentage of them make it to the major league at the actual position that they were signed for? Janish is already in question by the experts because of his bat.

    How many years will that be until one of those might beat the percentages? and how many years have the Reds put a losing product on the field in a row now? I think they could be a bit more flexible, they actually have with lesser players.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    Its pretty simple, its not likely to make a difference in 2010. I see Cozart getting about 150 PA toward the end of the year after getting plenty of time in Louisville. Between Cozart/Janish at SS and Phillips at 2B the difference in the drop off of Phillips to SS and Frazier to 2B is probably 20 runs. Phillips isn't as good at SS as Janish or Cozart. So we lose value there. Frazier in no way, shape or form is close to Phillips defensively at 2B. We lose a lot of value there.

    Offensively Frazier would have to be an .800 OPS bat to make the move one that is worth it and I just don't know that you can say for certain that he can do that right now. If you can't say for certain, its not worth the move.

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Why cant bp play SS again?

    Based upon position adjustments derived from research on the effect of players moving between positions, Phillips would be expected to take a 5 run hit to his defensive value by moving to short. Since he's graded out as a +7 run defender at secondbase for his career (based upon UZR), he'd be expected to be a +2 defender at short.

    So basically he'd be expected to go from being a plus defender at second to a roughly neutral defender at short. But his overall value really wouldn't take a hit because he'd be a roughly neutral defender at a more premium defensive position. His bat is irrelevant for the discussion of his worth based upon position because it's value is compared to major league average.

    So it comes down to this-the wisdom of the move must be considered by including the value of the options available to pair with Phillips (i.e. Phillips @ ss plus ?? @ 2b versus ?? @ ss plus Phillips @ 2b).

    I'm doubting at this point that the ?? player @ 2b the Reds could pair with Phillips makes his move to ss a nobrainer comapired to pairing a guy with Phillips staying at second. I think the hope would be that Frazier can play "Uggla to neutral defense at second". If that were so, given the potential in Frazier's bat, there's some compelling calculus for moving Phillips to short.

    The Reds seem more and more like theyre viewing Frazier in left though while wanting a vacuum cleaner at short.
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