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Thread: Marlins to hike payroll

  1. #1
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Marlins to hike payroll

    Marlins, Union Agree to Payroll Spending

    Among complaints that the Marlins have not been spending enough of their revenue sharing, they have agreed with the Union to start spending more on payroll.

    Interesting development.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    I saw that. It's hard to tell how much more they'll spend but Florida with a higher payroll could be a threat to the Phillies. Not this year but not that far off.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

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    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Just out curiosity, what the heck are the spending revenue sharing on now? Rent? I'm only half kidding.
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    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    I think this is bad news, guess they will overpay some bad players to appease the mighty union.
    Go Gators!

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    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    I think this is bad news, guess they will overpay some bad players to appease the mighty union.
    Right now it just means the chances of Uggla and Josh Johnson sticking around just increased. By how much and for how long is anyones guess.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

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    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    It aint how much you spend, it's how you spend it.

    What good is it gonna do anybody to spend a pile o' cash on contracts like those the Reds gave to Eric Milton or Willy Taveras?

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    Member blumj's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Just out curiosity, what the heck are the spending revenue sharing on now? Rent? I'm only half kidding.
    Considering how bad their stadium deal supposedly is, you might not be kidding at all.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    I think this is bad news, guess they will overpay some bad players to appease the mighty union.
    Or to adhere to the clear language of the contract they've signed through the collective bargaining unit?

    This action goes hand in hand with the entire thread we had about salary caps coupled with salary floors. It's been fairly clear that some franchises (with the Marlins and Pirates probably being the best examples).

    Here's what the CBA says (and it was mentioned in the article):

    A principal objective of the Revenue Sharing Plan is to promote
    the growth of the Game and the industry on an individual Club
    and on an aggregate basis. Accordingly, each Club shall use its revenue
    sharing receipts (from the Base Plan, the Central Fund Component
    and the Commissioner’s Discretionary Fund) in an effort to
    improve its performance on the field. Each Payee Club, no later than
    April 1, shall report on the performance-related uses to which it put
    its revenue sharing receipts in the preceding Revenue Sharing Year.
    Consistent with his authority under the Major League Constitution,
    the Commissioner may impose penalties on any Club that violates
    this obligation.


    It's interesting that the Marlins were the first to step forward because they have, in a roller coaster fashion, put forward some competitive teams. Frankly, if I was a Marlins fan, I'd be happy that the club is being forced to keep the club competitive, perhaps, as someone else noted, allowing them to retain some of their up and coming stars instead of trading them when their higher pay day arrives.

    But again, this isn't just the union being big and bad, it's insisting that the clubs honor the agreements in the CBA.
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    Red's fan mbgrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    I think this is bad news, guess they will overpay some bad players to appease the mighty union.
    From an overall baseball perspective, I would strongly disagree.

    The Marlins have been pocketing their revenue sharing money for years. They have ranked last in the National League in player salary for the last ten years. When you look at their team payroll and compare it to their division rivals, their salary has ranked as low as 21% of division average, and in 2009 was 40% of division average. See THIS thread for a Redszone discussion of correlation between payroll and performance.

    During that ten year span, they have one playoff appearance, which was in 2003, when they finished ten games behind the Braves, but won the wildcard slot. They then went on to win the World Series, behind a lineup of Ivan Rodriguez, Derrek Lee, Luis Castillo, Mike Lowell, Juan Pierre, and a young Miguel Cabrerra coming off the bench. Their pitchers were Brad Penny, Carl Pavano, Dontrelle Willis, Josh Beckett, and Mark Redman. AJ Burnett pitched a few games, but was injured.

    This entire 2003 Marlins team was liquidated over the next few years, and none of those players were on the Marlins roster by 2009. The reason? Slashing payroll.

    I think some amount of payroll equity is good for baseball. Not only do the high salary teams need to be capped or taxed, but the low payroll teams need to be brought up.
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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Quote Originally Posted by mbgrayson View Post
    I think some amount of payroll equity is good for baseball. Not only do the high salary teams need to be capped or taxed, but the low payroll teams need to be brought up.
    In some ways, it can act as a brake on the acceleration of salaries. How many of those Marlin players may have chosen to sign long term deals with the club they started with at more reasonable salaries. I agree with you that it gives clubs at the lower echelon a chance to retain players they develop, with creative extensions at pay that's acceptable to both parties. The refusal of some clubs to spend the money shared in MLB on player salaries has essentially set it up for those clubs to essentially be an adjunct of the richer clubs minor league system. Now none of this is a given, but in theory some of their players would choose to stay rather than be sold off for the big payday.
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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Quote Originally Posted by mbgrayson View Post
    From an overall baseball perspective, I would strongly disagree.

    The Marlins have been pocketing their revenue sharing money for years. They have ranked last in the National League in player salary for the last ten years. When you look at their team payroll and compare it to their division rivals, their salary has ranked as low as 21% of division average, and in 2009 was 40% of division average. See THIS thread for a Redszone discussion of correlation between payroll and performance.

    During that ten year span, they have one playoff appearance, which was in 2003, when they finished ten games behind the Braves, but won the wildcard slot. They then went on to win the World Series, behind a lineup of Ivan Rodriguez, Derrek Lee, Luis Castillo, Mike Lowell, Juan Pierre, and a young Miguel Cabrerra coming off the bench. Their pitchers were Brad Penny, Carl Pavano, Dontrelle Willis, Josh Beckett, and Mark Redman. AJ Burnett pitched a few games, but was injured.

    This entire 2003 Marlins team was liquidated over the next few years, and none of those players were on the Marlins roster by 2009. The reason? Slashing payroll.

    I think some amount of payroll equity is good for baseball. Not only do the high salary teams need to be capped or taxed, but the low payroll teams need to be brought up.
    Baseball needs to either find new ownership or leave South Florida. This is the perfect example why. Its a shame that there are other cities and owners who would support a team but the Marlins don't. Wasn't it at the end of the year two years ago when the marlins drew around 400 fans to a home game.

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    Member blumj's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Quote Originally Posted by mbgrayson View Post
    From an overall baseball perspective, I would strongly disagree.

    The Marlins have been pocketing their revenue sharing money for years. They have ranked last in the National League in player salary for the last ten years. When you look at their team payroll and compare it to their division rivals, their salary has ranked as low as 21% of division average, and in 2009 was 40% of division average. See THIS thread for a Redszone discussion of correlation between payroll and performance.

    During that ten year span, they have one playoff appearance, which was in 2003, when they finished ten games behind the Braves, but won the wildcard slot. They then went on to win the World Series, behind a lineup of Ivan Rodriguez, Derrek Lee, Luis Castillo, Mike Lowell, Juan Pierre, and a young Miguel Cabrerra coming off the bench. Their pitchers were Brad Penny, Carl Pavano, Dontrelle Willis, Josh Beckett, and Mark Redman. AJ Burnett pitched a few games, but was injured.

    This entire 2003 Marlins team was liquidated over the next few years, and none of those players were on the Marlins roster by 2009. The reason? Slashing payroll.
    But, look at that list, it's half full of players teams are trying to salary dump now or players who are out scrounging around for one year deals. Nobody with a brain would want to be spending real money to have half those guys on their roster in 2009.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

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    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Baseball needs to either find new ownership or leave South Florida. This is the perfect example why. Its a shame that there are other cities and owners who would support a team but the Marlins don't. Wasn't it at the end of the year two years ago when the marlins drew around 400 fans to a home game.
    The team and city has already started construction of a new stadium, to be completed in 2012. They're not going anywhere.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlins'_ballpark
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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    I think this is bad news, guess they will overpay some bad players to appease the mighty union.
    I think the Marlins get way too much credit for "frugal" winning. The stars have aligned for them twice, so they get the reputation as a model "draft and develop on the cheap" franchise. But what is it really getting them? They crash as quickly as they rise, and for that they get applauded.

    Oh, but they can develop pitching, one might say. Sort of like the Dodgers of the 70s, move the guys out of the home park, and they are usually exposed as very ordinary pitchers.
    Can't win with 'em

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    Red's fan mbgrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Marlins to hike payroll

    Quote Originally Posted by blumj View Post
    But, look at that list, it's half full of players teams are trying to salary dump now or players who are out scrounging around for one year deals. Nobody with a brain would want to be spending real money to have half those guys on their roster in 2009.
    I agree that by 2009, six seasons later, most of these guys were on their downward curve. But lets look at them one by one.

    1. Pudge left the Marlins after the 2003 season as a free agent. In 2004, he had a .893 OPS for Detroit, and has been dropping since. But he has had six years with an OPS over .700 since he left Florida; not too bad for a catcher.

    2. Derrek Lee and his then $6 million salary were traded to the Cubs in the 2003-04 off-season for Mike Nannini and Hee Seop Choi. In the six seasons since, Lee has never had an OPS lower than .823, and in 2005 led the league with a 1.080 OPS. Marlins missed out on that production....

    3. Luis Castillo stayed with Florida through the 2005 season. Then he and his $5 million salary was traded by the Marlins to the Twins for Scott Tyler (minors) and Travis Bowyer. For the last four season, Castillo has averaged in the low .700s for OPS while playing 2nd base.

    4. Mike Lowell also played two more years in Florida. After the 2005 season, he and his $7.5 million salary was traded by the Marlins with Josh Beckett and Guillermo Mota to the Boston Red Sox for Jesus Delgado, Harvey Garcia, Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez. Lowell has averaged in the low .800 OPS over the last four years for Boston.

    5. Juan Pierre also stayed through the 2005 season. He and his $5.7 million salary was traded by the Florida Marlins to the Chicago Cubs for Sergio Mitre, Ricky Nolasco and Renyel Pinto. He has OPS'd from .655 to .757 since, and has stolen from 30 to 64 bases per year.

    6. Miguel Cabrerra stayed in Florida through the 2007 season. Then he and his $11.3 million salary was traded by the Florida Marlins with Dontrelle Willis to the Detroit Tigers for Dallas Trahern (minors), Burke Badenhop, Eulogio De La Cruz, Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller and Mike Rabelo. He OPS'd .887 in 2008, and .942 in 2009, while finishing in the top five in MVP voting in 2009.

    7. Brad Penny stayed half way thru the 2004 season at Florida. Then he and his $3.7 million salary was traded by Florida with Hee Seop Choi and Bill Murphy to the Dodgers for Juan Encarnacion, Paul Lo Duca and Guillermo Mota. Since then, he has won 57 games forr LA, and been on the all star team twice.

    8. Josh Beckett played two more years with the Marlins. In the fall of 2005, he and his $4 million salary were traded to Boston, see Mike Lowell above. He has won 65 games over the last four seasons, had an ERA+ ranging from 95 up to 145, and has twice been an all star.

    9. AJ Burnett stayed two more years, then became a free agent after the 2005 season. He signed with Toronto and in 2008 with the Yankees, and has averaged over $10 million per year in salary. He has had an ERA+ from 104 to 119 over the last four years.


    That is all I have time to look at, but it is very clear that Florida has let a number of very good players go while they still had substantial value, once their salaries climbed into the multi-million dollar range. The Marlins missed out on a lot of production to cut payroll.
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