I like good defense as much as anyone.Originally Posted by nate
Give Me Good Pitching along with a good defensive players behind the plate, at shortstop, second base and center field. Throw in a first baseman who can catch the ball and a right fielder who can throw the ball and we might squeeze out a few low scoring wins. Defense in LF is low priority.
Good Pitching is key but most of those guys you are paying for their gloves better have some offensive skills as well.
Last edited by Ron Madden; 02-04-2010 at 04:01 AM.
Sure it's a low(er) priority. Only a third of the teams run out average to above average defenders in LF (RF too). But I'm looking at this from the glove + bat point of view. The poorest defenders, guys like Bay and Braun, still provide good value because they have exceptional bats. Well, I'm not so sure about Bay continuing to provide good value but you get the idea.
To me, I'm not liking the odds that Gomes will be more Chris Coghlan or Adam Lind than Ben Francisco. Going forward, I think it's more likely Gomes is an .800-ish OPS bat as indicated by 100% of his PAs rather than the .879 OPS bat he flashed for 18% of his career PAs 2009.
In other words, I don't think Gomes' glove + bat provides as much value as, say, Chris Dickerson's glove + bat.
To summarize, the point is not the "glove" or the "bat" but the combination of the two that causes me to balk at this issue. Either part of the equation being better would make this a more interesting excercise but as-is we have options that provide better value and are already paid for. I wouldn't pan a minor league deal for Gomes as it's at best, worth a shrug but if we start talking about seven figures, I get a stink eye.
Yes. I'd rather we were talking about improving the starting pitching than dabbling in the outfield margins with Gomes.Good Pitching is key but most of those guys you are paying for their gloves better have some offensive skills as well.
Platoon.In other words, I don't think Gomes' glove + bat provides as much value as, say, Chris Dickerson's glove + bat.
With this team, I think Gomes (assuming he signs) should see all ABs vs LHPs and at least 50% of the ABs vs RHPs until he shows that either last year was real or a fallacy.
Don't forget...Dickerson struggled mightily in LF last season and the popular reasoning was that he is a CFer, not a LFer. If that is truly the case, then he really shouldn't be in LF as his defense isn't an asset there.
True. However, with a ST to work on it, he may get better over there because he is a good athlete and you have to figure the CF skills would eventually translate to an extent. Plus, his OBP is sorely needed in the lineup.Don't forget...Dickerson struggled mightily in LF last season and the popular reasoning was that he is a CFer, not a LFer. If that is truly the case, then he really shouldn't be in LF as his defense isn't an asset there.
Gomes glove isn't the big problem. It's his bat. He makes lots of outs.
"My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton
He's right around ML average.
I agree 100% with nate and everyone else who says that his total value is brought down by his lack of defense.
But other people have a point when they bring up his splits. Granted, his career OPS is .801, but against LHP, it's .885. That makes his poor defense significantly more tolerable. I don't want Gomes on the club, but if he's brought in and used properly, he has the chance to be a big asset for the team.
Given your final few words there, why wouldn't you want Gomes on the club?
Not Cam but 2 words "The Dusty". Chances are with Dusty he's earned the right to prove his numbers Vs. RHP weren't a fluke. And if they were then you cost the team runs in the process both offensively and defensively (that this offense/team probably cannot make up).
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."
--Woody Hayes
This is an interesting discussion. I thought I was pretty tepid on Gomes, but some people here are much worse.
Since Taveras is gone, I think the club needs to add a cheap additional OFer. I don't want to see a kid pressed into service, esp if he really has pontential. I'd be more than willing to give Gomes around a million just to get it done, when the alternative is to sign someone like McDonald for min salary.. I can't remember, but min salary is somewhere around 450k or so, isn't it? Paying a million for Gomes isn't that much more. I agree that Gomes will never be a multidimionsal player, but his offensive strength vs LH pitching makes him worth 1-2 million on the Reds easily.
The only reason I can see stalling for Gomes is that Walt has a better option like Damon still in play. Then I can see being stubborn and only offering a minor league contract.
With Rolen and OCab on board, and Arroyo and Harang still here, the team is going to try to win in 2010. Doesn't seem prudent to hand Dickerson and Balentin the job. If the Reds can't get a proven LF, then adding Gomes as depth makes a lot of sense.
[Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob
Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!
Let me be clear, I'm a defense-first kind of guy...so I don't want a defensive hack out there in left. I was just saying that I didn't see a hack out there with Gomes. I'd heard all the horror stories prior to the season last year, but I just didn't see the bad D from the guy. But granted, I don't get to watch that many games due to my location.
So if he's truly a Dunn-esque defender...I'm all for passing on the guy regardless of his stick. But what I saw was an average LF defender.
Personally I think athletically speaking Dunn was/is superior. Although I give an edge to Gomes in effort. Neither is a very good fundamentals kind of guy.
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."
--Woody Hayes
I don't want Gomes to take at-bats away from younger guys who should be able to help the team for the next several years (i.e. Wladimir Balentien, Chris Heisey, Todd Frazier, et al). If Gomes is re-signed, it won't bother me, but I'm more excited about the 2011 team than I am this year's team.
He's not a good fielder but he's not the worst. His bat is more likely to be closer to his career averages rather than what they were in roughly a half-season's worth of PAs in 2009. The sum of those two things makes him kind of "veh" to me. I think Dickerson, Wlad and Heisey are likely to provide more value than Gomes.
Posting Permissions
|
Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please. |
Reply With Quote