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Thread: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

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    Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    Trying to keep the updates thread for mostly just updates and observations per OBM's efforts and the mod's requests, a conversation is trying to evolve there that would clutter that up, so I am offering this thread as a place to continue that conversation if people so wish.

    The article as posted by OBM and written by C. Trent:

    Dickerson wants a shot in CF
    By C. Trent Rosecrans, CNATI.com Posted February 25, 2010 6:22 PM ET

    GOODYEAR, Ariz. - Chris Dickerson knows this isn't going to sound right.

    He doesn't want it coming of as whiny or unhappy - but he is frustrated. Dickerson's a competitor, he's always competed and prevailed. He wants to be the best and works hard to be the best. He's proud of what he did last season as a rookie and that's why it's hard for him to understand why nobody is mentioning him as a contender for the starting job in centerfield.

    "I don't understand why that is. Why, maybe it's just because, I don't know. I have no clue," Dickerson said. "I can understand that I struggled some last year, but it's funny because people forget that before I got hurt I was hitting, I hitting close to .350 over the last month-and-a-half. My on-base percentage was close to .389."

    Dickerson started off the 2009 season slowly, dipping below .200 in May and was at .234 as late as June 14. But he rebounded, hitting .318 in the next 43 games to raise his batting average to .277, and ended the season at .275. He also played well n centerfield and was the team's best leadoff hitter, hitting .298 with a .365 OB in 29 games in the leadoff spot.

    "If you want me in the leadoff position, that's what I did. I got on base last year," Dickerson said. "I did everything I was supposed to do."

    Except the one thing he can't control - staying healthy.

    Since being called up in August of 2008, Dickerson has been on the disabled list three times, twice last season and once in 2008. He also spent time on Class AAA Louisville's disabled list in 2008.

    "Dickerson has as much ability as anybody, it's just a matter of him staying healthy, the same thing I said last year," Baker said. "People want to know why he didn't play every day, and that's because I wanted to keep him healthy with his history of injuries."

    But that's still frustrating to Dickerson - who understands his rant can come off wrong, and doesn't want to sound unhappy or like a jerk.

    "It's kind of angry and it's frustration and I know it's going to come out that way, I know," Dickerson said.

    Drew Stubbs is the favorite to be in centerfield on Opening Day.

    Stubbs impressed in his short time in Cincinnati last season, hitting eight home runs in 180 at-bats, while hitting .267 and playing outstanding defense.

    What strikes Dickerson is that his numbers weren't that different when he came up in 2008. Dickerson also came up in the middle of August and he hit six home runs in 102 at-bats, while batting .304. Like his 2009, it was cut short by a trip to the disable list.

    Instead of giving him a chance to win the centerfield spot last spring, the Reds signed Willy Taveras. No further explanation is needed to remind Reds fans how that turned out.

    With Taveras playing more than he wasn't, Dickerson played all three outfield positions, starting 27 games in left, 19 in center and 13 in right. He produced, too, finishing sixth among National League rookies in batting average (.275), fourth in stolen bases (11), third in on-base percentage (.379), sixth in walks (39) and tied for third in outfield assists (5).

    "I'm not trying to make this as a stab at the general audience, I don't understand how I get written off," Dickerson said. "Drew's a great player, but you know, when I was in center, I don't remember a whole lot of balls falling out there. Everyone's wanting to put me in left, that's OK with me, I'm comfortable in all three positions."

    Centerfield is like shortstop, the players that play there are usually a little defensive about their turf - it's the most important position of the outfield defensively, it sets a tone and it takes a certain attitude to want to be in the most crucial position. Dickerson says he's fine playing any of the other positions, but he's a centerfielder. According to Ultimate Zone Rating, it's also his best. His UZR/150, which measures how many runs above or under average a player is over the course of 150 games, was 45.5, while he was minus-21.5 in right and 21.8 in left. Small sample sizes can make advanced fielding stats notoriously unreliable and variable from year-to-year, but needless to say, it means he played a mean centerfield (Stubbs' UZR/150 in CF was 28.5)

    "I've played that my entire career since I've been with the Reds," Dickerson said. "Now I've been slated as left field and even then it's not maybe he'll take over center, nope, no, he's battling for left. I don't understand it. You can ask anyone I've played with what my best position is and they'll give you a clear-cut answer. It's not even a question for them, it's centerfield."

    Stubbs, for his part, says he isn't taking anything for granted. He's certainly got a claim to the centerfield spot, too. He's consistently be healthy since he was the first-round pick of the Reds in 2006 and led the Reds in home runs (5) and stolen bases (7) in September. In 40 starts, he had 15 multi-hit games.

    "I'm looking at this spring as, obviously I had a time up and was up there, I still feel like I have a lot to prove," Stubbs said. "I haven't had a full season yet. I'm looking at this as if I have as much to prove as anyone else."

    It's Dickerson, though, who is feeling the pressure. And he knows the antidote is simple. "I guess I'll just have to go out and hit .450 this spring," he said.

    http://cnati.com/spring-training-201...-in-cf-001356/


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    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    mth in that thread wrote this:

    MTH said:

    Dickerson AAA in 2008: OPS .862, wOBA .387, ISO .192
    Dickerson Majors 2008: OPS 1.021, wOBA .432, ISO .304
    Dickerson 2009: OPS .743, wOBA .339, ISO .098

    Stubbs AAA in 2009: OPS .713, wOBA .344, ISO ..092
    Stubbs Majors in 2009: OPS .762, wOBA .335. ISO .172

    Dickerson hits lefty and is good against RHP which is a team need.
    Stubbs hits righty and is better vs. LHP like most of the rest of the team.

    Dickerson with his 2008 season couldn't win the job and the team went out and signed Willy T in response.

    Stubbs with his 2009 season seemingly has everyone's endorsement and management rid themselves of Willy in response.

    Dickerson's wOBA in his disappointing 2009 is higher than Stubbs wOBA when he supposedly slammed the door on the job.

    I see why Dickerson is confused. I'm confused too.

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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    Nasty Boy wrote this:

    NASTY BOY said:

    I totally agree... This was yet another reason I was so ticked off about the Willy signing last year. There was nothing to indicate that he would outproduce the in-house options. It was a poor judge of talent and a big waste of prescious resources. Dickersons perfromance in 08 should have been more than enough to go into spring training with him as their CF.

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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    And this was my response before thinking we need to strip this conversation out and set it on its own:

    membengal wrote:

    mth, I was right there on the Dickerson bandwagon and pushing him for a position a year ago, leading the charge, as I recall. But when given the opportunity, albeit in LF, or to step to it in CF when Taveras inevitably gagged, he really was not able to answer the bell. And that's why he is behind Stubbs, at least at this point.

    Stubbs stumbles, as so many on here seem to expect/hope, Dickerson will be up again in CF. Heck, he may be up in LF if he goes out and does something this spring. But he sure hasn't earned default starter, either. And Stubbs' glove in CF, for all the protestations to the contrary from a lot of really good posters on this board whom I respect, makes him a good first choice, even if he OPS around .725.

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    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    I know a group of people like to bag on Stubbs, but I am sorry the difference between the two is night in day defensively. It isn't close. Stubbs is an elite defender. He is so good that you don't realize how good he is. Dickerson is another fine defensive player, but he isn't in Stubbs league so lets not pretend that he is.

    Dickerson can sort the clubhouse recyclables better from the bench anyway. Plus, I can't stand watching that guy run the bases, and he got hurt last year because of it.
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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    So a gain of .100 OPS while losing defense is acceptable at SS but at CF its not? Seems the defensive spectrum has been skewed somewhat.

    The .370 plus OBP of Dickerson would look great at the top of the line-up for about 500 PA...
    Last edited by thatcoolguy_22; 02-26-2010 at 07:45 AM.

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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    The goal is having a team that can be competitive for a span of several years. Because Stubbs is younger (cheaper), with a high ceiling and a better track record health-wise, he's the better choice as the full-time CF right now. Give his bat a chance -- if he shows signs of improvement/aptitude, stick with him. If he fails, then maybe Dickerson steps in down the road... But I'd get Stubbs at least 500 ABs this year.

    I think Dickerson should be able to see that and focus his efforts on improving in areas the team would like to see him improve in for 2010 (like playing LF).

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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    Dickerson certainly has a legitimate point about Tavares being brought in. That was a dumb move. However, Dickerson's main problem is that when he was in the minors, he never put up the kind of offensive numbers that made folks see him as an elite prospect. Stubbs was a first round draft choice, as was Bruce (who was drafted as a CF). Those were the guys the organization moved ahead of Dickerson on the depth chart several seasons ago. Of course they are going to get first dibs on CF. And Dickerson's track record of staying healthy doesn't help, either.

    The reality of the situation is that on 80% of the other teams in the major leagues, Dickerson would probably be the 4th OF - the guy who will only start three out of ten games in order to rest the starters.

    If Dickerson wants a legitimate shot at starting, then he needs to stay healthy, cut down on K's, and increase his BB's and OPS.
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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    The goal is having a team that can be competitive for a span of several years. Because Stubbs is younger (cheaper), with a high ceiling and a better track record health-wise, he's the better choice as the full-time CF right now. Give his bat a chance -- if he shows signs of improvement/aptitude, stick with him. If he fails, then maybe Dickerson steps in down the road... But I'd get Stubbs at least 500 ABs this year.

    I think Dickerson should be able to see that and focus his efforts on improving in areas the team would like to see him improve in for 2010 (like playing LF).
    Why would you not allow Dickerson (a plus CF in his own right) a chance to improve? His bat is not enough for LF and is much better than Stubbs. Stubbs might save 10 more runs in CF than Dickerson, but Dickerson's bat is probably 20 runs better than Stubbs at this point. IMO

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    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by thatcoolguy_22 View Post
    Why would you not allow Dickerson (a plus CF in his own right) a chance to improve? His bat is not enough for LF and is much better than Stubbs. Stubbs might save 10 more runs in CF than Dickerson, but Dickerson's bat is probably 20 runs better than Stubbs at this point. IMO
    Stubbs has a much higher ceiling. The upside is so much greater that it is worth an entire season to sink or swim. I have no problem with playing Dickerson in LF, though. I don't buy the whole "his bat doesn't play there" argument. This isn't fantasy baseball. If he gives you the best chance to win now and in the future, you start him. If Gomes/Heisey/Francsico/insert one of 900 other players in our system here gives you a better chance, you play them.

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    Dragged over from the ST thread too:

    Originally Posted by Ron Madden:
    I like 'em all but I can understand Chris Dickerson's Frustration.

    I honestly believe Dickerson plays CF just as good as Drew Stubbs and that Dickerson is the better offensive player.

    But that' a discussion for another thread.
    Someone said it earlier, it's a good problem to have. And Dusty said some time over the off-season, that he likes players to have a chip on their shoulder driving them. Dickerson said it himself, he'll just need to go out and prove himself and force the issue. And Stubbs is saying the same thing. Everyone of those guys hungry (and this would include Balentien) can only be a good thing. Even with some grousing.
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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    Why would you not allow Dickerson (a plus CF in his own right) a chance to improve? His bat is not enough for LF and is much better than Stubbs. Stubbs might save 10 more runs in CF than Dickerson, but Dickerson's bat is probably 20 runs better than Stubbs at this point. IMO
    I would allow it -- in LF, in a platoon. If you put him in CF, you're sitting Stubbs (who as a RH bat would get few ABs in a platoon), and that makes little sense.

    I'd like to see both guys out there most of the time, with Stubbs in CF.

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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by thatcoolguy_22 View Post
    Why would you not allow Dickerson (a plus CF in his own right) a chance to improve? His bat is not enough for LF and is much better than Stubbs. Stubbs might save 10 more runs in CF than Dickerson, but Dickerson's bat is probably 20 runs better than Stubbs at this point. IMO
    On what basis are you making your offensive assumption?

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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganBuck View Post
    I know a group of people like to bag on Stubbs, but I am sorry the difference between the two is night in day defensively. It isn't close. Stubbs is an elite defender. He is so good that you don't realize how good he is. Dickerson is another fine defensive player, but he isn't in Stubbs league so lets not pretend that he is.

    Dickerson can sort the clubhouse recyclables better from the bench anyway. Plus, I can't stand watching that guy run the bases, and he got hurt last year because of it.
    horsehockey. Dickerson is likely as fast as Stubbs, and has always been considered an elite defender. Offensively, while their lifetime minor league numbers are similar, Dickerson actually had the chance to improve his bat in the minors, and did so at AA/AAA where Stubbs was rushed and hasn't had the chance to develop. His AAA numbers suggest he actually has regressed a bit.
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    Re: Dickerson's Comments on CF Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    horsehockey. Dickerson is likely as fast as Stubbs, and has always been considered an elite defender. Offensively, while their lifetime minor league numbers are similar, Dickerson actually had the chance to improve his bat in the minors, and did so at AA/AAA where Stubbs was rushed and hasn't had the chance to develop. His AAA numbers suggest he actually has regressed a bit.
    I have trouble with the elite defender tag that gets thrown around a bit on this guy. He made a few unbelievably bad plays in the OF last season, misjudging flyballs and such. I don't care if he is used to CF or not, but anyone who is elite doesn't misplay fly balls like that.


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