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Thread: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

  1. #286
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Let's say for a moment Volquez returns after the ASB..



    Continuing... Lets also imagine that Arroyo and Harang are extended. the 2011 rotation is Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey and Volquez, in no particular order. Now imagine all 5 with sub 4 ERA's. Again, this is POSSIBLE.

    Now imagine Chapman pitches all year at AAA with an ERA hovering around 3.00, give or take. Now a trade seems logical. a trade of SOMEONE. But what would be illogical is grooming one of the established starters as a closer. Now moving Chapman to that role would be more likely. Papelbon did it. Morrow did it for a while, though I think he's going back to starting this year. Joba and hughes both spent time starting and relieving. Funny that no one asked CC to go to the pen

    Alonso is not better than Votto. He might never hit LH's like Votto does. You don't rank moving Votto over having one of your other prospects, ones actually vying for that LF position, fill it. It sends a bad message.

    That's simple management. Morale, in the minors too, counts.
    Again, not an apples to apples comparison. Pitching in the bullpen and starting are still both relatively the same thing: pitching. You don't necessarily have to "groom" a starting pitcher to pitch out of the bullpen. If you have a surplus of starting pitchers, it makes sense to use one of them in the bullpen, whether it be in the 8th as a set up guy, or in long relief. Starting pitchers can translate to the bullpen with relative ease.

    However, not all position players are capable of simply playing another position. Some players translate to other positions, and some don't Joey Votto has the athletic ability to play LF. He's played in the minors. How well he plays it is still TBD, but he has played it before. All reports indicate that Alonso's transfer to the outfield would not be as smooth as moving JV to LF.

    This move does not "send a bad message" IMO. If the Reds feel this is their best chance to compete, then I think they should do it. If it turns out that Alonso tears up AAA, Frazier/Heisey/Francisco/Gomes struggle/get injured, and the Reds need a bat, this is a legit option.

    No one is saying Alonso is better than Votto. However, IMO, Alonso can only play first base. Joey CAN play other positions. Do I think that he should? Not necessarily, but the point is that he can, and there is a solid chance that the best Reds lineup includes JV in LF, and Alonso at first.

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  3. #287
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You can't see any possible way at all that moving Joey Votto to LF makes the REDS a better team? You only see it as a way to screw up the club?
    Both of those things are potential outcomes. The point is, you don't have to risk one to get the other. They don't need to get into Votto's head now about the possibility of, or likelihood of, being pushed to the outfield. Just let him play until Alonso busts down the door *and* has demonstrated he can't play left field himself. (Right now, we're just guessing. An educated guess, but just a guess.) There will be plenty of time to see it coming; they're not going to wake up in mid-July and read a newspaper and suddenly discover that Alonso's OPSing 1.000 in Louisville. When and if that time comes, they can throw Votto another glove and give him a few days' boot camp and he'll be fine, he's not a total rookie out there.
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Both of those things are potential outcomes. The point is, you don't have to risk one to get the other. They don't need to get into Votto's head now about the possibility of, or likelihood of, being pushed to the outfield. Just let him play until Alonso busts down the door *and* has demonstrated he can't play left field himself. (Right now, we're just guessing. An educated guess, but just a guess.) There will be plenty of time to see it coming; they're not going to wake up in mid-July and read a newspaper and suddenly discover that Alonso's OPSing 1.000 in Louisville. When and if that time comes, they can throw Votto another glove and give him a few days' boot camp and he'll be fine, he's not a total rookie out there.
    Perfectly stated.
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    Both of those things are potential outcomes. The point is, you don't have to risk one to get the other. They don't need to get into Votto's head now about the possibility of, or likelihood of, being pushed to the outfield. Just let him play until Alonso busts down the door *and* has demonstrated he can't play left field himself. (Right now, we're just guessing. An educated guess, but just a guess.) There will be plenty of time to see it coming; they're not going to wake up in mid-July and read a newspaper and suddenly discover that Alonso's OPSing 1.000 in Louisville. When and if that time comes, they can throw Votto another glove and give him a few days' boot camp and he'll be fine, he's not a total rookie out there.
    I agree with this.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    This situation kind of reminds me of the "story" of old bull/young bull. Not the players but posters. I get the feeling everyone who is ok with just moving Votto to LF regardless of how he feels is younger than 30. Or in other words have a young bulls mentality. In this day and age you just can't move guys around like on a video game, there are ramifications whether we like it or not. I just don't think it would go over good with the rest of the team or the player being moved to if there was no fair reason to move player A off of his desired position. Heck even when it might be in the best interest of the team there are ways to go about it and not and going this route 1st isn't one of the wiser ways at least to start with. Putting Votto in LF right now for any amount of time says we might consider doing it in the future. No reason now to tip your hand and risk a number of negative ramifications. If handled properly you could still end up with the same scenario and no one feeling slighted/offended/disrespected and again that may not end with Votto.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    This situation kind of reminds me of the "story" of old bull/young bull. Not the players but posters. I get the feeling everyone who is ok with just moving Votto to LF regardless of how he feels is younger than 30. Or in other words have a young bulls mentality. In this day and age you just can't move guys around like on a video game, there are ramifications whether we like it or not. I just don't think it would go over good with the rest of the team or the player being moved to if there was no fair reason to move player A off of his desired position. Heck even when it might be in the best interest of the team there are ways to go about it and not and going this route 1st isn't one of the wiser ways at least to start with. Putting Votto in LF right now for any amount of time says we might consider doing it in the future. No reason now to tip your hand and risk a number of negative ramifications. If handled properly you could still end up with the same scenario and no one feeling slighted/offended/disrespected and again that may not end with Votto.
    I'm 42 approximately...I think if it is best for the team then the Reds should ask Joey to move to LF. I don't think Joey will be surprised if it happens.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    This situation kind of reminds me of the "story" of old bull/young bull. Not the players but posters. I get the feeling everyone who is ok with just moving Votto to LF regardless of how he feels is younger than 30. Or in other words have a young bulls mentality. In this day and age you just can't move guys around like on a video game, there are ramifications whether we like it or not. I just don't think it would go over good with the rest of the team or the player being moved to if there was no fair reason to move player A off of his desired position. Heck even when it might be in the best interest of the team there are ways to go about it and not and going this route 1st isn't one of the wiser ways at least to start with. Putting Votto in LF right now for any amount of time says we might consider doing it in the future. No reason now to tip your hand and risk a number of negative ramifications. If handled properly you could still end up with the same scenario and no one feeling slighted/offended/disrespected and again that may not end with Votto.
    Two Bulls were standing on a hill looking at a slew of cows in the valley, the young bull turns to the older bull and says, let's run down there get us one of the ladies, the older bull says, I got a better idea, let's walk down there and get them all.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Two Bulls were standing on a hill looking at a slew of cows in the valley, the young bull turns to the older bull and says, let's run down there get us one of the ladies, the older bull says, I got a better idea, let's walk down there and get them all.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  10. #294
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by 15fan View Post
    Bravo, good sir. You're the only person in the thread to draw the parallel between 2010 and a dozen years ago.

    Though you do lose a couple of points because you left Dmitri Young out of the equation. Remember when Da Meat Hook was shifted to the hot corner? He made Willie Greene look like Brooks Robinson.

    Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
    I thought of Young as well, but I didn't want to complicate the analogy because there isn't an equivalent to Dmitri on the current Red's roster (there aren't too many switch hitters who can rake like Da Meat Hook could, period)

    And I wasn't implying that Alonso = Casey or that Votto = Konerko, I just found it ironic that the last time we were talking about having "too many" quality first basemen was back in '98

    It's funny how there are parallels for everything in sports. My favorite NBA team (Blazers) has an all-star 2-guard (Roy) and a Spanish star (Rudy Fernandez) who plays the same position. Portland fans have made similar arguments about how Roy "should move" to another position to accomodate Rudy. Or they'll say the two of them can play at the same time, even though they're really not great defenders. But Portland's coach (Nate McMillian) is defensive-minded, just like Walt Jocketty. So I suspect Cincy will resist the temptation to sacrifice corner defense to gain more offense (hence the departures of Dunn and EdE, since Walt's taken charge) and this leads me to the conclusion that Yonder will eventually be dealt away. This is the same expectation I have re: Fernandez, BTW, although there's a rumor that the Blazer's owner (Paul Allen) won't allow Rudy to be traded, under any circumstances...

    Meanwhile, NFL free agency starts tonight and there won't be a salary cap this year, so this is a busy time of year for fans of the 3 major pro sports...
    Last edited by gm; 03-05-2010 at 03:30 AM.
    Never overlook the obvious

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    There is a big distinction there. Often it's bandied about here that Votto has refused. I think it's a non-issue because the club has not asked that he move and he has not refused.
    Shades of Larkin and Griffey, late in their careers. Barry was a SS until he retired and Junior remained in CF, well after he had lost a step or two
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Yankees management comes to Gehrig in the late '20s and tells Lou

    "The Babe is getting tired of running around out there in RF, he wants to play 1st base instead. How about you take some fly balls out in LF?"

    Somehow, I don't think we've reached this point (yet) re: Votto and Alonso. Not that it wouldn't be a good problem to have...
    Never overlook the obvious

  13. #297
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by gm View Post
    I thought of Young as well, but I didn't want to complicate the analogy because there isn't an equivalent to Dmitri on the current Red's roster (there aren't too many switch hitters who can rake like Da Meat Hook could, period)

    And I wasn't implying that Alonso = Casey or that Votto = Konerko, I just found it ironic that the last time we were talking about having "too many" quality first basemen was back in '98

    It's funny how there are parallels for everything in sports. My favorite NBA team (Blazers) has an all-star 2-guard (Roy) and a Spanish star (Rudy Fernandez) who plays the same position. Portland fans have made similar arguments about how Roy "should move" to another position to accomodate Rudy. Or they'll say the two of them can play at the same time, even though they're really not great defenders. But Portland's coach (Nate McMillian) is defensive-minded, just like Walt Jocketty. So I suspect Cincy will resist the temptation to sacrifice corner defense to gain more offense (hence the departures of Dunn and EdE, since Walt's taken charge) and this leads me to the conclusion that Yonder will eventually be dealt away. This is the same expectation I have re: Fernandez, BTW, although there's a rumor that the Blazer's owner (Paul Allen) won't allow Rudy to be traded, under any circumstances...

    Meanwhile, NFL free agency starts tonight and there won't be a salary cap this year, so this is a busy time of year for fans of the 3 major pro sports...
    Under the former administration decisions were made based too much on what the fans though. I remember when Young was traded or was talked about being traded Sean Casey made a remark about Young being a very good switch hitter who plays all over the place. Casey said maybe I should be traded.

    The same could be said about Konerko and Casey. Konerko got a brief look but the organization was committed to Casey because the fans loved him so much. Konerko was traded for Cammeron, which was a good trade, but I had thought Casey should have been traded.

    Fan favorites were also catered to, see Larkin and Jr. staying in their positions as long as they did. I think when the new organization came along decisions have been made with more baseball sense than anything else.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Two Bulls were standing on a hill looking at a slew of cows in the valley, the young bull turns to the older bull and says, let's run down there get us one of the ladies, the older bull says, I got a better idea, let's walk down there and get them all.
    Sounds like a bunch of bull to me!



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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Two Bulls were standing on a hill looking at a slew of cows in the valley, the young bull turns to the older bull and says, let's run down there get us one of the ladies, the older bull says, I got a better idea, let's walk down there and get them all.

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