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Thread: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

  1. #166
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    Jocketty has now stated that Votto is not going to be moved. Some folks need to finally give it up and realize that he is not going to left field. Move on and hope that Alonso either works out at 3rd, Left, or is traded for a stud catcher, shortstop, or another great hitter than can play the outfield.
    As long as they hold true to Votto not being moved, then sure. But I still question the decision of not at least exploring it as I believe you should explore every option to improve your baseball team. I would ask Albert Pujols to go back to playing 3B if I could somehow swing a trade that lands me Prince Fielder. Sure, Pujols is the better player and has been in St Louis since the start, but Pujols is also the one of the two who has a chance to actually be able to play another position.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    But I still question the decision of not at least exploring it as I believe you should explore every option to improve your baseball team.
    Let Alonso prove he'd improve the team, then worry about it. Trying to force anything on Votto now based on the assumption that Alonso could eventually challenge for first base would be a terrible move. What the organization can give Votto right now is respect -- he's earned it. You have to remember that Alonso may have already earned more $$$ than Votto. Votto's still looking for that payday, even if right now he's done stuff in the majors Alonso can only dream about. So -- the organization has to be careful. They can't pay Votto yet, it seems -- but if they want any chance of getting a friendly deal out of him down the road they have to do right by him now.

    These are people, not gamecards. You have to calculate the human equation correctly.
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  4. #168
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Let Alonso prove he'd improve the team, then worry about it. Trying to force anything on Votto now based on the assumption that Alonso could eventually challenge for first base would be a terrible move. What the organization can give Votto right now is respect -- he's earned it. You have to remember that Alonso may have already earned more $$$ than Votto. Votto's still looking for that payday, even if right now he's done stuff in the majors Alonso can only dream about. So -- the organization has to be careful. They can't pay Votto yet, it seems -- but if they want any chance of getting a friendly deal out of him down the road they have to do right by him now.

    These are people, not gamecards. You have to calculate the human equation correctly.
    The point is though that if you wait for Alonso to 'prove' it, you then have set yourself back however long it takes for you to be comfortable to play Votto in left long enough to be comfortable with him there to actually do it in a game. That sets your team back further. Where as just getting Votto 20-30 innings in left field in spring training to see how he does and if its not any worse than Jonny Gomes having Votto take 1 day out of the week to shag balls in the outfield during the season is going to set you back absolutely nothing. I would rather be prepared to make a move even if it never gets to that point than not be prepared for it and set things back even further and hurt the team because I couldn't see it coming despite the fact that I did indeed see it coming and the Reds most certainly see it coming.

  5. #169
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Basically it comes down to this:

    You can have Joey Votto try some left field in 10 games during the spring and see how it goes. If its decent enough, have him get one day a week in the outfield practice in the majors. It hurts nothing at all.

    Or you can not do anything at all right now.

    Then Alonso goes on a tear and hits .315/.400/.550 in April and May down in AAA and left field isn't working out as you hoped. If you went with option A, on June 1st you can call up Alonso and plug him at 1B and put Votto in LF. If you went with option B, you continue to have a crappy left field situation, keep Votto at 1B and get him some slight work in the outfield during practice and Alonso continues killing the ball in Louisville while not helping the Reds and maybe come August Votto now has enough time in left field to be comfortable again and you get Alonso's help then. But you have now wasted away two full months of Alonso at the MLB level because you couldn't ask Votto to try a little bit of left field in spring training.

    Or there is the chance you take option A and Alonso doesn't break down the door in Louisville this season. You still lose absolutely nothing. It just doesn't make sense to not make it happen now, while you can, if you indeed see this problem coming at you and the Reds do.

  6. #170
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Basically it comes down to this:

    You can have Joey Votto try some left field in 10 games during the spring and see how it goes. If its decent enough, have him get one day a week in the outfield practice in the majors. It hurts nothing at all.

    Or you can not do anything at all right now.

    Then Alonso goes on a tear and hits .315/.400/.550 in April and May down in AAA and left field isn't working out as you hoped. If you went with option A, on June 1st you can call up Alonso and plug him at 1B and put Votto in LF. If you went with option B, you continue to have a crappy left field situation, keep Votto at 1B and get him some slight work in the outfield during practice and Alonso continues killing the ball in Louisville while not helping the Reds and maybe come August Votto now has enough time in left field to be comfortable again and you get Alonso's help then. But you have now wasted away two full months of Alonso at the MLB level because you couldn't ask Votto to try a little bit of left field in spring training.

    Or there is the chance you take option A and Alonso doesn't break down the door in Louisville this season. You still lose absolutely nothing. It just doesn't make sense to not make it happen now, while you can, if you indeed see this problem coming at you and the Reds do.
    Or you choose Option C:

    You continue to let Joey Votto be the best hitter on the team and continue to work on becoming a top-flight first baseman defensively.

    If Alonso goes on his supposed tear at Louisiville, you trade him (possibly packaged with other prospects) to the team willing to offer the best return value that includes a SS, a C, or a strong arm. You trust that one of your other farmhands (Frazier, Francisco, Heisey, et. al.) can provide the solution you are looking for at LF in 2010 and beyond.

    As far as I'm concerned, you don't mess with Votto and Alonso is gone to the first team that offers a competitive return when (if?) he gets hot and starts tearing up AAA.

    It's not like we're talking about a sacred cow or the #1 prospect in all of baseball here. He's a good prospect, but he's never been spoken of in reverent "untouchable" terms at any point in his career. He's a very advanced hitter who projects to be an above-average bat (possibly reaching All Star level) at first base, but he ain't Babe Ruth.

    If you can mine value at a more important position out of that, go ahead and do it -- because finding an adequate LF should be beyond easy if you aren't terribly worried about defense (which you would be conceding as true the minute you stuck Votto out there).
    Last edited by Caveat Emperor; 03-02-2010 at 05:08 PM.
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The point is though that if you wait for Alonso to 'prove' it, you then have set yourself back however long it takes for you to be comfortable to play Votto in left long enough to be comfortable with him there to actually do it in a game. That sets your team back further. Where as just getting Votto 20-30 innings in left field in spring training to see how he does and if its not any worse than Jonny Gomes having Votto take 1 day out of the week to shag balls in the outfield during the season is going to set you back absolutely nothing. I would rather be prepared to make a move even if it never gets to that point than not be prepared for it and set things back even further and hurt the team because I couldn't see it coming despite the fact that I did indeed see it coming and the Reds most certainly see it coming.
    Again, this is sitting in a vacuum, minus Frazier, Heisey and Francisco. Heck, you could even throw Dorn into the mix. Moving Votto isn't a priority as the team has depth in the system at corner OF. And since Votto in LF and Alonso at 1B isn't significantly better than say Votto at 1B and Frazier in LF, why do it?
    Suck it up cupcake.

  8. #172
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    forgive me if this has been already mentioned:

    Votto goes to LF and makes a few bad plays.
    He gets mildly stressed about this and it affects his hitting.
    Or he gets really stressed out over this and his anxiety/depression issues flare up.

    Keeping Joey at 1B lets him relax. Since he seems to be a 'take the world on his shoulders and get stressed out' kind of a guy, then maybe keeping him in his comfort zone is important. After all he is the only star player we have.
    .

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    The point is though that if you wait for Alonso to 'prove' it, you then have set yourself back however long it takes for you to be comfortable to play Votto in left long enough to be comfortable with him there to actually do it in a game. That sets your team back further. Where as just getting Votto 20-30 innings in left field in spring training to see how he does and if its not any worse than Jonny Gomes having Votto take 1 day out of the week to shag balls in the outfield during the season is going to set you back absolutely nothing. I would rather be prepared to make a move even if it never gets to that point than not be prepared for it and set things back even further and hurt the team because I couldn't see it coming despite the fact that I did indeed see it coming and the Reds most certainly see it coming.
    You can't worry about "setting the team back" until Alonso proves something. It's that simple. Unless you want an unhappy team, you do not favor high-round draft picks over core players on your major league club. Basic -- and I mean basic -- tenet of managing professional ballplayers.

    But let's examine your fantasy on its own terms a little...

    When they threw Votto out in LF in 07 -- and he looked fair -- how much prep do you think he'd had? Not much.

    Even in the optimistic scenario you describe -- Alonso blowing up in AAA -- nothing happens until midseason. By then Goodyear is 4-5 months in the rearview mirror. The affront to Votto is what would linger, not the LF skills, so for now you leave the guy alone and let him devote himself to getting ready to be the best he can be for April 2010. That's how you avoid setting the team back. Because going into the season the Reds need Votto doing what Votto does more than they need a strategy for bringing any rookie to the majors down the road. The latter deserves zero consideration right now, as it pertains to Joey Votto.
    Last edited by lollipopcurve; 03-02-2010 at 05:17 PM.
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post

    It's not like we're talking about a sacred cow or the #1 prospect in all of baseball here. He's a good prospect, but he's never been spoken of in reverent "untouchable" terms at any point in his career. He's a very advanced hitter who projects to be an above-average bat (possibly reaching All Star level) at first base, but he ain't Babe Ruth.

    If you can mine value at a more important position out of that, go ahead and do it -- because finding an adequate LF should be beyond easy if you aren't terribly worried about defense (which you would be conceding as true the minute you stuck Votto out there).
    While I favor keeping JV at first, I'm confident he will get some OF time this spring. All kinds of things are tried out in spring training and Votto should play some innings out there just to enhance his flexibility in case of emergency.

    Don't disgregard the possibility that this all comes down to economics.

    If YA pans out offensively, the Reds could approach Votto for a long-term extension. Buy out his arb years, lock him up for 5-6 years at a fair price. If he says no, we can't ignore the possibility that he is deemed too expensive and traded.

    Keep in mind that Harang and Arroyo may be gone next year, the Reds will need some pitchers. Jocketty doesn't strike me as the type to rely on Leake and Wood and other prospects. He will want one or two good experienced starters.

    So there will likely be a scenario for Alonso or, less likely, Votto to bring back an important player in a trade.
    Last edited by Kc61; 03-02-2010 at 05:20 PM.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Basically it comes down to this:

    You can have Joey Votto try some left field in 10 games during the spring and see how it goes. If its decent enough, have him get one day a week in the outfield practice in the majors. It hurts nothing at all.

    Or you can not do anything at all right now.

    Then Alonso goes on a tear and hits .315/.400/.550 in April and May down in AAA and left field isn't working out as you hoped. If you went with option A, on June 1st you can call up Alonso and plug him at 1B and put Votto in LF. If you went with option B, you continue to have a crappy left field situation, keep Votto at 1B and get him some slight work in the outfield during practice and Alonso continues killing the ball in Louisville while not helping the Reds and maybe come August Votto now has enough time in left field to be comfortable again and you get Alonso's help then. But you have now wasted away two full months of Alonso at the MLB level because you couldn't ask Votto to try a little bit of left field in spring training.

    Or there is the chance you take option A and Alonso doesn't break down the door in Louisville this season. You still lose absolutely nothing. It just doesn't make sense to not make it happen now, while you can, if you indeed see this problem coming at you and the Reds do.
    It seems to me you have no grasp for the human variables in this situation.

    Are you intentionally ignoring them, or do you think they don't exist?
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    While I favor keeping JV at first, I'm confident he will get some OF time this spring. All kinds of things are tried out in spring training and Votto should play some innings out there just to enhance his flexibility in case of emergency.
    They've got bodies galore for LF, including Alonso. I'd be shocked if Votto sees an inning out there.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  13. #177
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Or you choose Option C:

    You continue to let Joey Votto be the best hitter on the team and continue to work on becoming a top-flight first baseman defensively.

    If Alonso goes on his supposed tear at Louisiville, you trade him (possibly packaged with other prospects) to the team willing to offer the best return value that includes a SS, a C, or a strong arm. You trust that one of your other farmhands (Frazier, Francisco, Heisey, et. al.) can provide the solution you are looking for at LF in 2010 and beyond.

    As far as I'm concerned, you don't mess with Votto and Alonso is gone to the first team that offers a competitive return when (if?) he gets hot and starts tearing up AAA.

    It's not like we're talking about a sacred cow or the #1 prospect in all of baseball here. He's a good prospect, but he's never been spoken of in reverent "untouchable" terms at any point in his career. He's a very advanced hitter who projects to be an above-average bat (possibly reaching All Star level) at first base, but he ain't Babe Ruth.

    If you can mine value at a more important position out of that, go ahead and do it -- because finding an adequate LF should be beyond easy if you aren't terribly worried about defense (which you would be conceding as true the minute you stuck Votto out there).
    Well option C is only if the Reds are just giving lip service, which I stated at the start of all of the proposed ideas is not being applied here if what they are saying is to be believed. If it is just lip service, then sure. Just trade Alonso. But if its not and the Reds are looking at legit ways to put Alonso in a Reds uniform, then options A and B are the ones you need to look at. Option C isn't an option in that equation.

    As for Alonso's prospects ranking.... pre injury when he was beating up on the FSL, he was rated as the #15 prospect in all of baseball. Sure, its not #1, but that is among the absolute elite prospects in baseball.

  14. #178
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    It seems to me you have no grasp for the human variables in this situation.

    Are you intentionally ignoring them, or do you think they don't exist?
    If someone is going to throw a fit and act like they are 10 and their dad is the coach because I offer something that could improve the team, then I don't want that guy on my team anyways. Sure, players like that exist but I would tell them that they do what I fill out on the lineup card until they are no longer on my team. If the player is more about him than the team, well I can simply solve my problem by trading that guy.

  15. #179
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Philly had a similar problem with Howard/Thome. The only difference, I guess, was that Thome wasn't going anywhere else on the field.

    I'd let Alonso play first in AAA for the season and let Votto play all season at first in Cincy. Then, this offseason, I'd have to make a decision. If Alonso mauls AAA pitching all year, Votto would not be untouchable. I would look to trade one of them and see what helps the team the most. Alonso and the haul from a Votto trade or vice versa.
    Last edited by edabbs44; 03-02-2010 at 05:33 PM.

  16. #180
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    If someone is going to throw a fit and act like they are 10 and their dad is the coach because I offer something that could improve the team, then I don't want that guy on my team anyways. Sure, players like that exist but I would tell them that they do what I fill out on the lineup card until they are no longer on my team. If the player is more about him than the team, well I can simply solve my problem by trading that guy.
    So now we're going to trade our best player to make room for a prospect with barely any minor league expierence?


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