Turn Off Ads?
Page 16 of 20 FirstFirst ... 6121314151617181920 LastLast
Results 226 to 240 of 299

Thread: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

  1. #226
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,283

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    And Votto is better than Alonso defensively and offensively. at 1B.

    You don't move the better player to a position he is weaker at in favor of a lesser hitter. Its certainly no lock that Alonso is better than Frazier offensively as Frazier has been better than Alonso at every level.
    Alonso OPS'd .880 in Sarasota. Frazier was at .808. Thats a bit of a difference. Frazier was not even better at AA, where Alonso OPS'd .829 while Frazier was at .831. Frazier was also older and not dealing with a wrist injury. Of course SSS applies as well in Alonso's case.

    But to get to the first part of your post, why do you not make that move if the combo of Votto to LF and Alonso at 1B is better than keeping Votto at 1B and someone else in LF? The fact that Votto may be better than Alonso at 1B means nothing if the move makes the Reds better.

    Again, not saying it does. But completely ignoring the fact that it could happen seems to be going on an awful lot in the thread.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #227
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Savannah, TN
    Posts
    2,885

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Yup.

    I feel that sometimes people become so attached to Reds prospects as they come up through the system that they often forget that these guys are just assets that need to be cultivated, shuffled, and cultivated again until the end result is a 25 man roster that can win major league games.
    Do you realize how long it has been since we have had any real prospects that we want to keep? We are grasping at any glimmer of hope.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  4. #228
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Bedford, KY
    Posts
    8,992

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by paulrichjr View Post
    Do you realize how long it has been since we have had any real prospects that we want to keep? We are grasping at any glimmer of hope.
    I'd argue that the Reds have enjoyed one of the most successful farm systems over the past three years of any in baseball. Top five, at least. Real prospects are all over the field at the major league level right now and in AAA and AA.

    The farm is thriving and has done so for awhile now.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  5. #229
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,392

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Frazier is better defensively, Janish is better defensively than Frazier...who cares? Alonso will be a much better hitter than Frazier and he plays 1B which won't require better defense, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Alonso OPS'd .880 in Sarasota. Frazier was at .808. Thats a bit of a difference. Frazier was not even better at AA, where Alonso OPS'd .829 while Frazier was at .831. Frazier was also older and not dealing with a wrist injury. Of course SSS applies as well in Alonso's case.

    But to get to the first part of your post, why do you not make that move if the combo of Votto to LF and Alonso at 1B is better than keeping Votto at 1B and someone else in LF? The fact that Votto may be better than Alonso at 1B means nothing if the move makes the Reds better.

    Again, not saying it does. But completely ignoring the fact that it could happen seems to be going on an awful lot in the thread.
    No, what seems to be going on in this thread is treating that move like a must happen without taking into consideration the 5 or so other players on the cusp of making it to the Reds vying for that LF job. I don't believe that Alonso's offense will be so much greater then Frazier's. I think Frazier's LF defense will be MUCH better than Votto's LF defense. I don't think Alonso's offense or defense will ever be better than Votto's and I don't think many in the Reds think it will either.

    But you want the Reds' best player to move from his best position to make room for a guy that hasn't played a full season injury free, and by your words will either be tearing up AAA by july or might be fully healed by july. ok.

    I'm not afraid to see a player move to another position. BP should have moved in 2007 to SS. Maybe if the Reds had a decent 3B in the pipeline, EE would be playing LF (I really always thought he might get it together at 3B though... ah well). But to move a guy off position when others are better suited to it AND on the verge of coming up sends a very BAD signal to those players.

    Alonso is trade bait. You should probably get used to that.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  6. #230
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,283

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post

    But you want the Reds' best player to move from his best position to make room for a guy that hasn't played a full season injury free, and by your words will either be tearing up AAA by july or might be fully healed by july. ok.
    You clearly have missed everything I have written. I am suggesting that IF Alonso pushes the issue, that there is a good chance that Alonso to 1B and Votto to LF is the best situation for the Reds. I am also suggesting there is a chance that it could happen as soon as June or July of this year. I am suggesting that it would be smart for the Reds to start making slight preparations for that scenario if they don't view Alonso as pure and simple trade bait because that guy isn't playing another position no matter how much we wish he can. It hurts nothing to be prepared for the situation, if it doesn't arrive, then it never has to take place. But if it does arrive and you didn't prepare at all, it hurts your team for however long it takes you to get Votto the time in LF during practice until he is game ready to make the move to bring Alonso up. I just don't see why you don't at least prepare for the situation that could present itself if the Reds truly don't see Alonso as pure trade material.

  7. #231
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,392

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You clearly have missed everything I have written. I am suggesting that IF Alonso pushes the issue, that there is a good chance that Alonso to 1B and Votto to LF is the best situation for the Reds. I am also suggesting there is a chance that it could happen as soon as June or July of this year. I am suggesting that it would be smart for the Reds to start making slight preparations for that scenario if they don't view Alonso as pure and simple trade bait because that guy isn't playing another position no matter how much we wish he can. It hurts nothing to be prepared for the situation, if it doesn't arrive, then it never has to take place. But if it does arrive and you didn't prepare at all, it hurts your team for however long it takes you to get Votto the time in LF during practice until he is game ready to make the move to bring Alonso up. I just don't see why you don't at least prepare for the situation that could present itself if the Reds truly don't see Alonso as pure trade material.
    because what if Frazier is the AAA LF, plays above league average defense, and OPS's around .875+? What if at the same time Dorn does something similar in RF? (yeah, he can't hit LH's, but neither can Alonso and he murders RH's) And what if Francisco has a light come on, but butchers 3B? And say all this happens and Alonso, who by your own words won't be healthy until July just is average. Or maybe he OPS's .875.

    Why on god's earth would you move Votto to LF with three bats potentially posting an .850+ OPS and all are potential LF's? For the outside chance that ONE scenario MIGHT play out?

    No.

    You maximize his potential value to the Reds. You start Alonso everyday at 1B, and maybe you show him to have versatility by playing a few games at 3B and LF. And you shop him quietly while publicly getting him some press. Especially if he has a good stretc of games offensively while out of position.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  8. #232
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Springfield, Ohio
    Posts
    9,052

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You clearly have missed everything I have written. I am suggesting that IF Alonso pushes the issue, that there is a good chance that Alonso to 1B and Votto to LF is the best situation for the Reds. I am also suggesting there is a chance that it could happen as soon as June or July of this year. I am suggesting that it would be smart for the Reds to start making slight preparations for that scenario if they don't view Alonso as pure and simple trade bait because that guy isn't playing another position no matter how much we wish he can. It hurts nothing to be prepared for the situation, if it doesn't arrive, then it never has to take place. But if it does arrive and you didn't prepare at all, it hurts your team for however long it takes you to get Votto the time in LF during practice until he is game ready to make the move to bring Alonso up. I just don't see why you don't at least prepare for the situation that could present itself if the Reds truly don't see Alonso as pure trade material.
    They aren't going to prepare for something they obviously don't plan to do. The way I read it is they don't foresee Alonso doing something so special to make them eat their words. And if he does well they will be happy to re-consider.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  9. #233
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,283

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    because what if Frazier is the AAA LF, plays above league average defense, and OPS's around .875+? What if at the same time Dorn does something similar in RF? (yeah, he can't hit LH's, but neither can Alonso and he murders RH's) And what if Francisco has a light come on, but butchers 3B? And say all this happens and Alonso, who by your own words won't be healthy until July just is average. Or maybe he OPS's .875.

    Why on god's earth would you move Votto to LF with three bats potentially posting an .850+ OPS and all are potential LF's? For the outside chance that ONE scenario MIGHT play out?
    You don't move Votto yet. You wait for the other situations to play out, but you prepare Votto today so you don't have to do so in the future when it will take longer IF you decide that is the best route for the team to take. You don't move Votto until you decide what to do with Alonso (and he needs to push the gas pedal hard and heavy before making a move), but if you decide you want both Votto and Alonso on the same team Votto to LF is the only option that makes any real sense. Be prepared for the situation and if it never presents itself then it doesn't matter. But if it does present itself, you can take action quicker, thus maximizing the best solution for the Reds quicker.

  10. #234
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,392

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You don't move Votto yet. You wait for the other situations to play out, but you prepare Votto today so you don't have to do so in the future when it will take longer IF you decide that is the best route for the team to take. You don't move Votto until you decide what to do with Alonso (and he needs to push the gas pedal hard and heavy before making a move), but if you decide you want both Votto and Alonso on the same team Votto to LF is the only option that makes any real sense. Be prepared for the situation and if it never presents itself then it doesn't matter. But if it does present itself, you can take action quicker, thus maximizing the best solution for the Reds quicker.
    I just disagree with this completely. It'd be one thing if he was moving for defensive reasons and you wanted his bat in the lineup (BP to SS springs to mind), but this move is nonsensical. Even preparing him to move sends the wrong message to Francisco Heisey and Frazier. It says to them, don't bother, we only value Votto and really Alonso. And Alonso hasn't proven squat.

    1B is a non issue. It's Joey Votto's until he can't play there, his bat fades or is traded. LF is the open position and Alonso is the odd man out. I doubt we ever see Alonso and Votto on the field together in a regular season game. One or the other, maybe.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  11. #235
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    14,768

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    This situation kind of reminds me of the Cleveland Indians in the mid 90's. They had Jim Thome at 1b with guys like Richie Sexson and Sean Casey coming up in the pipeline. Both Sexson and Casey were dealt to add missing pieces to the Indians.

    To me minor leaguers are pawns. Some you protect and some you sacrifice. If Alonso goes gang busters in AAA this season that only increases his trade value. If he does I sit down with Votto and discuss the situation. I work out a contract extension with him at the same time but also talk about his thoughts on a move to LF. If he is against it, then I trade Alonso, if he is for it then I see how it goes.
    If Alonso ends up becoming Dave Burba, it will be kind of a downer IMO.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  12. #236
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,815

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Yup.

    I feel that sometimes people become so attached to Reds prospects as they come up through the system that they often forget that these guys are just assets that need to be cultivated, shuffled, and cultivated again until the end result is a 25 man roster that can win major league games.
    BINGO!

  13. #237
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,283

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    1B is a non issue. It's Joey Votto's until he can't play there, his bat fades or is traded. LF is the open position and Alonso is the odd man out. I doubt we ever see Alonso and Votto on the field together in a regular season game. One or the other, maybe.
    So if a scenario presents itself that makes the team better to move Joey Votto to LF you aren't going to do it? You would rather have a worse team than move Votto to LF?

  14. #238
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    3,796

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    So if a scenario presents itself that makes the team better to move Joey Votto to LF you aren't going to do it? You would rather have a worse team than move Votto to LF?
    No, I think what we are saying is that we believe that there is no conceivable scenario that will ever present itself where this team is made better by moving Votto to LF just so Alonso can play 1B.

    In fact, it probably would be a BETTER scenario to move Todd Frazier to LF. Fraizer is lights out better defense than either Votto or Alonso in LF right now. And Fraizer's offense is MUCH better right now as well. Or platooning Dorn with Gomes could be a greater improvement.

    Alonso needs to first prove he even belongs in the majors.
    Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one, and they don't want someone else's shoved into their face.

  15. #239
    Member Nasty_Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    1st Place... Finally
    Posts
    1,191

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Wow, I'm with Doug on this one... I can't believe that you guys think there is no way that Alonso becomes the kind of bat the Reds want/need in the lineup with Votto. Doug is 100% correct that you make whatever move is best for the success of the team, and I believe that Alonso will be very much like Votto at the plate. They need more guys like him and less guys like, say a Francisco. Nobody expect Votto to hit at the level he hit at last season. Most expect him to be a .850ish first baseman... Well I think its a very real possibility that Yonder Alonso turns into a .900+ OPS guy at the big league level. And quite honestly, I don't think that all of Joey's demons are behind him. So as Doug said, let things play out and let the chips fall where they may but I would be in no hurry to trade Alonso.
    I know a lot of people are talking about his on-base percentage (.308 in 2008), but I like to think more in terms of him his in-scoring position percentage. - Our Beloved Manager

  16. #240
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    10,097

    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    So as Doug said, let things play out and let the chips fall where they may
    That's exactly not what doug is saying. Doug is saying make Votto take a spring training tutorial in LF -- even though Votto has expressed a preference not to play LF.

    Because Alonso might do well in Louisville.

    That's not letting things play out.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini


Turn Off Ads?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25