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Thread: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

  1. #241
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    I think TRF brings up some very valid points. This Alonso Votto discussion isn't made in a vacuum, other players come into the mix when looking at this situation. The likes of Frazier, Heisey, Francisco, etc. also play into this discussion. Is Votto at 1b, Frazier in LF, + prospect from Alonso > Votto in LF + Alonso at 1b? Its really a question you have to ask and consider. The answer isn't really clear and changing positions isn't exactly as easy as it sounds.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    You don't move Votto yet. You wait for the other situations to play out, but you prepare Votto today so you don't have to do so in the future when it will take longer IF you decide that is the best route for the team to take. You don't move Votto until you decide what to do with Alonso (and he needs to push the gas pedal hard and heavy before making a move), but if you decide you want both Votto and Alonso on the same team Votto to LF is the only option that makes any real sense.
    I read that as planning ahead because you have faith in your drafting, evaluation, and projections of Alonso. And I wouldn't let Joey tell me what position he's playing or where he wants to play. You tell him he's playing the position that makes the team better, and right now that's 1st base but it may not be a year from now. Doug isn't saying that Votto is going to be moved unless a couple of things happen, but he's saying your prepare for them incase they do. And having Joey do a little OF work isn't going to hurt a thing... And if he's so fragile mentally that he can't take some flyballs, just in case or for the good of the team, do we want to move forward with that guy as the center of our lineup? Don't get me wrong, I love me some Joey Votto but the front office can't make decisions based on whose feelings they may hurt.
    I know a lot of people are talking about his on-base percentage (.308 in 2008), but I like to think more in terms of him his in-scoring position percentage. - Our Beloved Manager

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    What if Rolen gets hurt, because he does get hurt, or starts to decline a more rapid pace? Then aren't you better with Alonso at 1st, Votto in LF, and Frazier at 3rd? This decision doesn't have to be made right away, and I'm not against moving Alonso but this situation isn't cut and dry.
    I know a lot of people are talking about his on-base percentage (.308 in 2008), but I like to think more in terms of him his in-scoring position percentage. - Our Beloved Manager

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    And if he's so fragile mentally that he can't take some flyballs, just in case or for the good of the team, do we want to move forward with that guy as the center of our lineup?
    Larkin didn't want to move to 2B to make room for Stillwell. Nor did he want to hit leadoff. Does that mean he was fragile mentally?

    Votto has moved all around the diamond in his professional career. Started at catcher, went to 3B, played a little OF. Now he's at first -- I figure he's allowed to say where he's most comfortable.

    It's really incredibly simple -- make Alonso prove something before you make Votto do something he is not comfortable doing.

    Why mess with the way your best player is getting ready for the season -- who's currently working his tail off to be the best defender he can be at the position he has earned -- because there's a minor leaguer who might hit well in AAA? It makes no sense whatsoever.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Moving Votto based on the premise that a guy with 80+ minor league games MIGHT explode by July, A guy that had a broken hamate bone, which according to doug will sap his power for about a year meaning he likely WON't explode until after July seems premature. At best.

    so, doug, what if Heisey doesn't make the club out of ST and has this line at the ASB: .280 .375 .470? and he plays plus defense? And at the same time Alonso puts up similar numbers? And both do this at AAA. Are you saying you'd still move Votto to LF for Alonso?
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Why mess with the way your best player is getting ready for the season -- who's currently working his tail off to be the best defender he can be at the position he has earned -- because there's a minor leaguer who might hit well in AAA? It makes no sense whatsoever.
    That's where I am. Don't force an issue before the situation calls for it.

    I understand that the scenario might come to pass where Alonso is raking but it turns out he can't play the outfield acceptably, and they figure the Alonso 1B/Votto LF alignment is the push the club needs. But that won't happen for a few months at least, and by then, any outfield refresher course Votto might have taken this spring would have worn off. But he's played it before, he won't be a complete beginner. If they decide that's how it has to be, throw him an outfielder's glove, send him out to shag some balls and write it on the lineup card. Until then, don't get in his head about it.
    Not all who wander are lost

  8. #247
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    I'm just guessing, but I think Doug wants in the lineup whoever makes the best team, whether that means having Votto at 1B, LF, C, or anywhere else.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Nothing has been said except Alonso projects to be a certain type of hitter, but I can't believe you guys all think there isn't a situation where Alonso doesn't become a better hitter and fielder at 1st than Votto.

    But I'm trusting that I scouted, drafted, and developed a guy that is a middle of the order bat... A guy that has put up darn good numbers in a short amount of time in pro ball. And IMO, the odds of Chris Heisey out producing Votto and Alonso at the ML level is very unlikely although I do think he can be a solid big leaguer... but even with plus defense in LF, give me the bats at 1st and LF and I'll take the chance they won't hurt me on defense.

    It just comes across that you guys are dismissing Alonso. I realize he hasn't earned the right to be the 1st baseman in Cincy, and that he's a one position player... But have bat will play... And I believe that Alonso and Votto will post very similar numbers at the big league level. And if the Reds think that is a possibility then they need to have a plan B.
    I know a lot of people are talking about his on-base percentage (.308 in 2008), but I like to think more in terms of him his in-scoring position percentage. - Our Beloved Manager

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    I'm just guessing, but I think Doug wants in the lineup whoever makes the best team, whether that means having Votto at 1B, LF, C, or anywhere else.
    Same thing with Alonso... If he could play LF, that's the easy solution but Votto can play a better LF than Alonso. It would be great if Alonso could catch, but a guy on the 40 man roster learning to catch (probably in the low minors) is a much bigger crapshoot than moving an athletic 1st baseman with LF experience back to the OF. And of course, this is only after Alonso hits in the minors. WE GET THAT! lol
    I know a lot of people are talking about his on-base percentage (.308 in 2008), but I like to think more in terms of him his in-scoring position percentage. - Our Beloved Manager

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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nasty_Boy View Post
    Nothing has been said except Alonso projects to be a certain type of hitter, but I can't believe you guys all think there isn't a situation where Alonso doesn't become a better hitter and fielder at 1st than Votto.

    But I'm trusting that I scouted, drafted, and developed a guy that is a middle of the order bat... A guy that has put up darn good numbers in a short amount of time in pro ball. And IMO, the odds of Chris Heisey out producing Votto and Alonso at the ML level is very unlikely although I do think he can be a solid big leaguer... but even with plus defense in LF, give me the bats at 1st and LF and I'll take the chance they won't hurt me on defense.

    It just comes across that you guys are dismissing Alonso. I realize he hasn't earned the right to be the 1st baseman in Cincy, and that he's a one position player... But have bat will play... And I believe that Alonso and Votto will post very similar numbers at the big league level. And if the Reds think that is a possibility then they need to have a plan B.
    I take issue with these two statements. I think some have sold the production Votto has put together in his first couple of years. Last season he was 3 in the NL in OPS, with only Pujols and Fielder putting up a better season. Votto also doesn't slump against either handed pitcher. He truly is a good all around bat.

    Alonso may very well be a good bat, but I just don't know if he can put the type of numbers that Votto did last season.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    And if the Reds think that is a possibility then they need to have a plan B.
    So the team needs to be making plans this spring training for any "possibility" that may take place in 2010?

    But have bat will play
    Not necessarily in the NL.

    And I believe that Alonso and Votto will post very similar numbers at the big league level.
    Very, very optimistic projection for which there is no compelling evidence.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    It's a never-ending circle...again with the suggestion that Alonso is a DH...uninformed at best. Dorn is a DH and shouldn't even be mentioned in a thread about improving the Reds long-term. Closed minds won't make the Reds a better team and I have faith that if/when the time comes that Alonso is ready for MLB that Jockety & Co. won't have closed minds.

    This thread is like G-nip G-nop, y'all are pounding on those buttons trying to send the ball to the other side as hard as possible while some of us can just tap our button and ball returns to your side... Pound away!

    Bum

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    I take issue with these two statements. I think some have sold the production Votto has put together in his first couple of years. Last season he was 3 in the NL in OPS, with only Pujols and Fielder putting up a better season. Votto also doesn't slump against either handed pitcher. He truly is a good all around bat.

    Alonso may very well be a good bat, but I just don't know if he can put the type of numbers that Votto did last season
    Did Votto project to be a 1.000 OPS player? No... Will he continue to be? I hope so, but everyone and their brother on this site knows how good Votto was last season.

    So the team needs to be making plans this spring training for any "possibility" that may take place in 2010?
    Yes, you should take steps and have a plan in place on what may happen... It's better than scrambling around if the situation does arise. Especially if you have confidence in your system.

    Not necessarily in the NL.
    Really? It may not be ideal, but if you have a consistent .950-1.000 OPS guy then I doubt you'll hear to many complaints about LF or 1B defense unless you're tuned to 700 WLW.

    Very, very optimistic projection for which there is no compelling evidence.

    Compare Votto and Alonso's numbers in the same league at a similar age... Did Votto project to be a 1.000 OPS player? Hell, half of this board wanted to trade him for Eric Bedard.

    I guess I was one of the few that loved the Alonso pick because I felt he was a can't miss big league hitter... And I think he's more driven to be a star than Votto, because of Joey's personal life. I hope that's not the case, but I could see a situation were Votto thinks more of his family and their well being than being a guy that plays 10-12+ years. He just seems to have a different prospective than he did in the past, and that TOTALLY understandable.
    I know a lot of people are talking about his on-base percentage (.308 in 2008), but I like to think more in terms of him his in-scoring position percentage. - Our Beloved Manager

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Alonso's numbers pale in comparison to Sean Casey's.

    Moving the guy who OPS'ed third in the league for a Sean Casey clone seems silly, especially considering that Votto is an above average glove at 1B (and Alonso isn't) and other LF options are far, far ahead of either Votto or Alonso with the glove in the OF.

    Basically, one argument TRF continues to make (that doug hasn't addressed) is that, in moving Votto to LF to make way for Alonso, you ignore the OF prospects that project to hit as well as Alonso but with better gloves.

    Alonso, at this time, projects behind Frazier, who also gives better D in the OF. Alonso's offense projects better than Heisey's, but Heisey's D is outstanding in LF, while Votto or Alonso project to be Dunn-ian in left. That's a potential difference of 30 runs or so, according to UZR. Is Alonso 30 runs better than Heisey? He certainly wasn't last season. You've also got guys like Dickerson and Balentien in the majors who both have talent enough to force the issue.

    Why, taking all of this into consideration, would you even think of moving your superstar and best offensive player-- whom you want to keep after his six year service time is up-- to another position (he doesn't feel comfortable in) that may affect his numbers pretty substantially for an untested and raw prospect when you have other options that grade out as nearly the same?

    It makes little sense to move Votto now. At all.

    Now, if Alonso explodes, as doug insists will happen this season, you can re-visit the scenario later. After the season, more likely. It's not like those extra AAA ABs is going to kill Alonso anyway.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  16. #255
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    It's a never-ending circle...again with the suggestion that Alonso is a DH...uninformed at best. Dorn is a DH and shouldn't even be mentioned in a thread about improving the Reds long-term. Closed minds won't make the Reds a better team and I have faith that if/when the time comes that Alonso is ready for MLB that Jockety & Co. won't have closed minds.

    This thread is like G-nip G-nop, y'all are pounding on those buttons trying to send the ball to the other side as hard as possible while some of us can just tap our button and ball returns to your side... Pound away!

    Bum
    When Alonso puts up ONE season as good as Dorn, let me know.

    Dorn is a LH version of Gomes, which makes him more valuable than Gomes.
    Suck it up cupcake.


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