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Thread: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

  1. #271
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    And any good GM and organization will have contingency plans for events that may happen. The more likely the event, the more they need to think about it.

    Alonso having a break-out season has a decent chance of occuring. If it does, I'd hope WJ has some ideas as to how to handle it.
    Alonso's break-out needs to be signicantly higher than any numbers he's put up in the minors so far to move Votto to LF and take that hit defensively.

    It's not just about the bats-- gloves matter now.

    Neither Votto nor Alonso are good enough in left field for a guy at first base to OPS 850. If you're going to take that defensive hit, you'll need a guy at 1B to OPS in the 900+ range.

    So far, Alonso hasn't shown an ability to do that. His career minor league OPS is 837. He's got a marathon in front of him that he needs to run. He's just begun limbering up and some are insisting he's going to win the race.

    Let's see him run first.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  3. #272
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Joey Votto means too much to this team and to the future of the organization to start jacking him around. He's earned his spot and his position there is no way I fool with that not even for an ideal alignment. Sometimes these things go beyond what looks wise on paper and this is just one of those occasions. When you have a guy like Joey whom everyone can respect and look to it goes a long way towards getting the best out of everyone. Once Alonso is major league ready and Joey hasn't had anymore issues with his mental health then I think it is safe to deal Yonder or stick him in LF and see what happens, he can't be any worse than Gomes in LF assuming he gives plenty of effort. As noted earlier I wouldn't think it would hurt anything to ask Votto but I personally would let him know what our thinking is behind the move and that it is up to him and we aren't gonna hold it against him if he chooses not to do it.
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  4. #273
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Alonso's numbers pale in comparison to Sean Casey's.
    So did Joey Votto's as a minor leaguer. You are reaching.

    Basically, one argument TRF continues to make (that doug hasn't addressed) is that, in moving Votto to LF to make way for Alonso, you ignore the OF prospects that project to hit as well as Alonso but with better gloves.
    I have addressed it 15 times. IF the Reds think Alonso to 1B and Votto to LF is the best situation for the team to best succeed (and that in itself means they don't think any other situation is better), then you make the move. That is what I have been saying for 10 pages now.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    When Alonso puts up ONE season as good as Dorn, let me know.
    Dorn at 22 in the FSL - .815 OPS
    Alonso at 22 in the FSL - .880 OPS

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    I have addressed it 15 times. IF the Reds think Alonso to 1B and Votto to LF is the best situation for the team to best succeed (and that in itself means they don't think any other situation is better), then you make the move. That is what I have been saying for 10 pages now.
    What you've been saying is that the team should start preparing for that possibility now -- that is, without waiting to see how Alonso or anybody else does in the first part of the season.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  7. #276
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    What you've been saying is that the team should start preparing for that possibility now -- that is, without waiting to see how Alonso or anybody else does in the first part of the season.
    Yes. I said get Votto 20 innings in 30 days of spring training and once a week put Votto in LF to take flyballs. I don't want to wait and see what happens because if it does, and the Reds likely think Alonso is going to hit very well at the MLB level, then you are just postponing the situation's solution even further down the road. If the Reds decide to go with Alonso to 1B and Votto to LF, without the preparation now for that move, you are hurting the team from the point Alonso is ready until the point you do make the move because you didn't prepare for a situation you should have known was coming. And again, this is also reliant on the fact that the Reds aren't just giving us lip service about wanting both guys in the lineup.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Dorn at 22 in the FSL - .815 OPS
    Alonso at 22 in the FSL - .880 OPS
    touche
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Yes. I said get Votto 20 innings in 30 days of spring training and once a week put Votto in LF to take flyballs. I don't want to wait and see what happens because if it does, and the Reds likely think Alonso is going to hit very well at the MLB level, then you are just postponing the situation's solution even further down the road. If the Reds decide to go with Alonso to 1B and Votto to LF, without the preparation now for that move, you are hurting the team from the point Alonso is ready until the point you do make the move because you didn't prepare for a situation you should have known was coming. And again, this is also reliant on the fact that the Reds aren't just giving us lip service about wanting both guys in the lineup.
    By this reasoning we should let Homer Bailey close occasionally because Chapman COULD supplant him.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  10. #279
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Doug, does 20 innings of LF during spring training really prepare Votto for anything? I mean were roughly talking about 2 full games. I just don't think that is worth the hassle.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Yes. I said get Votto 20 innings in 30 days of spring training and once a week put Votto in LF to take flyballs. I don't want to wait and see what happens because if it does, and the Reds likely think Alonso is going to hit very well at the MLB level, then you are just postponing the situation's solution even further down the road. If the Reds decide to go with Alonso to 1B and Votto to LF, without the preparation now for that move, you are hurting the team from the point Alonso is ready until the point you do make the move because you didn't prepare for a situation you should have known was coming. And again, this is also reliant on the fact that the Reds aren't just giving us lip service about wanting both guys in the lineup.
    Short-term...

    The assumption that the work in ST would carry over several months down the road is highly questionable.

    The assumption that Votto would not be able to function without disaster in LF on short order is also highly questionable.

    Long-term...

    The assumption that there would not be implications concerning Votto's willingness to stay in Cincy is naive.

    Still can't see where the argument has merit, unless it's a covert operation to screw up the club.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  12. #281
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    By this reasoning we should let Homer Bailey close occasionally because Chapman COULD supplant him.
    There are 5 starting pitching spots. There is one 1B spot. I'm sure there is a comparison out there, but I don't think this is it.

  13. #282
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    By this reasoning we should let Homer Bailey close occasionally because Chapman COULD supplant him.
    Do we view Homer Bailey as worse than 5 other starters in the future? You know thats a bad comparison.

  14. #283
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Short-term...

    The assumption that the work in ST would carry over several months down the road is highly questionable.
    That is why you also get him one practice a week in LF. To keep things a little fresh.

    The assumption that there would not be implications concerning Votto's willingness to stay in Cincy is naive.
    The assumption that he will want to stay is also naive, even if we keep him at 1B.

    Still can't see where the argument has merit, unless it's a covert operation to screw up the club.
    You can't see any possible way at all that moving Joey Votto to LF makes the REDS a better team? You only see it as a way to screw up the club?

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    There are 5 starting pitching spots. There is one 1B spot. I'm sure there is a comparison out there, but I don't think this is it.
    Let's say for a moment Volquez returns after the ASB..

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Do we view Homer Bailey as worse than 5 other starters in the future? You know thats a bad comparison.
    Continuing... Lets also imagine that Arroyo and Harang are extended. the 2011 rotation is Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey and Volquez, in no particular order. Now imagine all 5 with sub 4 ERA's. Again, this is POSSIBLE.

    Now imagine Chapman pitches all year at AAA with an ERA hovering around 3.00, give or take. Now a trade seems logical. a trade of SOMEONE. But what would be illogical is grooming one of the established starters as a closer. Now moving Chapman to that role would be more likely. Papelbon did it. Morrow did it for a while, though I think he's going back to starting this year. Joba and hughes both spent time starting and relieving. Funny that no one asked CC to go to the pen

    Alonso is not better than Votto. He might never hit LH's like Votto does. You don't rank moving Votto over having one of your other prospects, ones actually vying for that LF position, fill it. It sends a bad message.

    That's simple management. Morale, in the minors too, counts.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    That is why you also get him one practice a week in LF. To keep things a little fresh.
    This is the only way to prep Votto to play in LF?

    The assumption that he will want to stay is also naive, even if we keep him at 1B.
    Perhaps, but I have no reason to think he wouldn't stay. Do you?

    You can't see any possible way at all that moving Joey Votto to LF makes the REDS a better team? You only see it as a way to screw up the club?
    I see no evidence for it at this point. I can imagine a couple scenarios in which it might make sense -- promoting Alonso or Francisco to play 1B -- and I can imagine many scenarios in which it would not make sense. For the moment, I know it makes sense for the team to continue its evaluation of its minor league talent at AAA so that it has a better chance to make the right decision about how to deploy it, and in the meantime leave Votto alone so he can prepare for 2010 the best way he knows how.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini


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