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Thread: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

  1. #76
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post

    The Yankees didn't ask Jeter to move for the best player in baseball, yet we want the Reds to move Votto to make room for a guy who hasn't really proven himself in the pros as of yet.
    That doesn't mean it was the right call either. It also doesn't really apply since Jeter and Arod could both play other positions, while no one really believes that Alonso can.

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  3. #77
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    While I am sure the Reds aren't on the same page as me, Francisco shouldn't enter the conversation at any position until he gets his bat under control. Frazier has versatility that lets him play all over, so even then it wouldn't block him. Heisey likely would be blocked though.
    He's potentially playing LF at AAA this year. Frazier could slot into any opening except CF and C. Heisey has a shot at CF if things go bad for CD AND Stubbs. He's in the conversation. He may not be the first name brought up, but you can be sure they are listing him on a depth chart for both 3B and LF.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    So, Alonso plays average 1B defense in the minors and that might not translate to MLB? Can you explain the differences between playing 1B in the minors vs playing 1B in MLB? To me, I think his 1B defense would translate directly from the minors to MLB. I would even think that he might improve in MLB as the seasons go by due to more experience at the position.

    Bum
    Alonso has less then 80 games in the minor leagues so far. Scouting reports on his tools are the only way anyone could possibly project how well he plays defense at this point.

    We have an idea of his defensive potential (and when that defensive potential is "he should be adequate at first base" be very afraid), but that's a far, far cry from knowing that he plays an average 1st base in the minors, let alone how well he will play in the majors.
    Last edited by OUReds; 03-01-2010 at 05:47 PM.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Not until he moved for the 4th time
    See? That proves the famous "fourth time's the charm" adage!

    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Yeah, it would be fun to see the reaction. Because sometimes people treat a roster like a video game and not like a game played by humans. Like that Votto's .900+ OPS will translate exactly to LF if he were to move. And that Alonso, due to his pedigree, is a lock to be a masher at 1B. And that it won't make a difference to Votto if he moves for a guy who doesn't pan out, or that he establishes himself as the center of this team and now is being asked to move across the field for someone who hasn't played an inning above AA and only 29 games over A ball.

    The Yankees didn't ask Jeter to move for the best player in baseball, yet we want the Reds to move Votto to make room for a guy who hasn't really proven himself in the pros as of yet.

    I could see Cincy sitting down with Votto and talking it through if Alonso was absolutely mashing in AAA and there were no other options, but at this stage Joey shouldn't have to worry about this at all.
    I don't think anyone is talking about Votto switching to LF or even thinking about it right now. I suggested that when Alonso was ready to play everyday in MLB that Jockety may change his tune about moving Votto. Until then it is a mute point which is why I think people are reading too much into Jockety's comments.

    As for Jeter...I agree with Doug; when A-Rod was acquired Jeter was the second best SS on the Yankees. How long did Jeter pout because A-Rod got so much attention? Best player getting the attention, crazy I say!

    In the end, I don't see the fun in watching a Reds prospect fail but to each his own I guess.

    Bum

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    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    That doesn't mean it was the right call either. It also doesn't really apply since Jeter and Arod could both play other positions, while no one really believes that Alonso can.
    Define "play" for me.

    Actually, the reason why that move worked, a few years later, was that both of their bats could justify below average defense, no matter where they played. Votto's bat clearly can justify him in LF, even if he is as bad as Manny. We just don't know enough about Alonso, either his offense or defense, to make any judgment.

    That's why I agree with you, that given what we know currently, moving Votto to LF makes the most sense. However, it also makes sense to see how Alonso does at other positions, just in case.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Having Alonso, Heisey, Fransisco, Frazier and the others nipping at the heels of the guys now in the majors is a good problem to have. In fact, I can't remember a time when the Reds have had as many young players and prospects (both pitching and hitting) that were at AAA or in the majors.

    Wherever Alonso (and the others play), I'm very excited to see these guys play this year and next.
    Hacktastic: The Story of the 2014 Cincinnati Reds

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by OUReds View Post
    Alonso has less then 80 games in the minor leagues so far. Scouting reports on his tools are the only way anyone could possibly project how well he plays defense at this point.

    We have an idea of his defensive potential (and when that defensive potential is "he should be adequate at first base, be very afraid), but that's a far, far cry from knowing that he plays an average 1st base in the minors, let alone how well he will play in the majors.
    He played 1B in college...how is playing 1B any different at MLB than it is in the minors and college? Matter of fact, how hard is it to play 1B anyway? So, you think Alonso may just be a DH? What expert has suggested that?

    Bum

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    Define "play" for me.

    Actually, the reason why that move worked, a few years later, was that both of their bats could justify below average defense, no matter where they played. Votto's bat clearly can justify him in LF, even if he is as bad as Manny. We just don't know enough about Alonso, either his offense or defense, to make any judgment.

    That's why I agree with you, that given what we know currently, moving Votto to LF makes the most sense. However, it also makes sense to see how Alonso does at other positions, just in case.
    We know, based on scouting, that Alonso is going to be a very bad left fielder because he is very slow. Third base may be an option I guess, but when does he get time to play there? Are they going to split time with Francisco in Louisville? What about Frazier ever getting a start at 3B down there?

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Here is what we know.... Joey Votto has over a third of a season's experience in playing left field. Joey Votto is faster than Yonder Alonso is. Joey Votto has a better arm than Yonder Alonso does. All of those suggests that Joey Votto would make a much better left fielder than Yonder Alonso will. We also know what Yonder Alonso is an average first baseman in the minors and that is likely to transfer forward to the majors.
    Joey Votto is also an established, big league 1st baseman. You can play Alonso in LF for the entire minor league season and see what he can do out there. It makes no sense to make your hands down, best player move positions in the majors when you can have your prospect (which is all Alonso) screw around trying new positions in the minor league.

    You make Alonso move, you don't make Votto move.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    He played 1B in college...how is playing 1B any different at MLB than it is in the minors and college? Matter of fact, how hard is it to play 1B anyway? So, you think Alonso may just be a DH? What expert has suggested that?

    Bum
    I missed the part where I claimed Alonso may just be a DH. I'm saying his defense at 1st base is an unknown at this point. Joey's is not.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    We know, based on scouting, that Alonso is going to be a very bad left fielder because he is very slow. Third base may be an option I guess, but when does he get time to play there? Are they going to split time with Francisco in Louisville? What about Frazier ever getting a start at 3B down there?
    No, you don't know. You have no idea what kind of LF or 3rd baseman Alonso would make.

    You don't have to have good speed not to be a butcher in LF.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Not until he moved for the 4th time
    The Reds won the Pennant in 1970, after Rose moved to RF, and then again in 1972, after he moved to LF. They also started winning the first year that they moved him to the OF. Can't say those moves didn't help the ballclub win.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Joey Votto is also an established, big league 1st baseman. You can play Alonso in LF for the entire minor league season and see what he can do out there. It makes no sense to make your hands down, best player move positions in the majors when you can have your prospect (which is all Alonso) screw around trying new positions in the minor league.

    You make Alonso move, you don't make Votto move.
    It makes perfect sense to give Votto time out there in spring, when it doesn't matter. So if Alonso bursts onto the scene in July you can make a decision and Votto has some experience there in a recent season (last played LF in 2007). If the Reds are not just giving us lip service on the situation with Alonso, then they really need to take a strong look at Votto to LF because it makes the absolute most sense of any other scenario (Heisey/Frazier/Francisco in LF.... not likely to be as valuable as Votto/Alonso manning LF/1B).

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by OUReds View Post
    I missed the part where I claimed Alonso may just be a DH. I'm saying his defense at 1st base is an unknown at this point.
    If he might not be able to play reasonable defense at 1B then what can he do? I was just trying to be logical in following along with what you were posting. How about answering the questions that I asked? What is different about 1B defense between College/Minor Leagues and MLB?

    Bum


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