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Thread: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

  1. #91
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    The Reds won the Pennant in 1970, after Rose moved to RF, and then again in 1972, after he moved to LF. They also started winning the first year that they moved him to the OF. Can't say those moves didn't help the ballclub win.
    Maybe. How many times did he move for a guy that has played 80ish minor league games in his professional career?
    Suck it up cupcake.

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  3. #92
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It makes perfect sense to give Votto time out there in spring, when it doesn't matter. So if Alonso bursts onto the scene in July you can make a decision and Votto has some experience there in a recent season (last played LF in 2007). If the Reds are not just giving us lip service on the situation with Alonso, then they really need to take a strong look at Votto to LF because it makes the absolute most sense of any other scenario (Heisey/Frazier/Francisco in LF.... not likely to be as valuable as Votto/Alonso manning LF/1B).
    Or, you play Alonso in LF all season, so he has just as much/more expierence in the OF as Votto does.

    And no, it doesn't. If you move Votto to LF you make your defense worse at two positions. If you leave Votto where he is, and move around Alonso, you're not trying to fix a problem that you don't already have.

  4. #93
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    No, you don't know. You have no idea what kind of LF or 3rd baseman Alonso would make.

    You don't have to have good speed not to be a butcher in LF.
    Alonso doesn't just not have good speed, he doesn't have average speed or probably even below average speed. He is probably a 30 runner. He is like a 4.6 guy to first base. As a lefty. That is SLOW. Like Sean Casey slow. You better run the most perfect routes to the ball as soon as it leaves the bat to overcome that kind of speed and given that he has never once played the outfield, I doubt that happens. So yeah, I don't know what kind of left fielder Alonso would make, and I don't know what kind of Major League hitter I would make.... but based on what I do know, its a very good chance that Alonso will be a terrible left fielder and that I would be the worst major league hitter of all time. I don't need to have done either to know both of those are extremely likely.

  5. #94
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Or, you play Alonso in LF all season, so he has just as much/more expierence in the OF as Votto does.

    And no, it doesn't. If you move Votto to LF you make your defense worse at two positions. If you leave Votto where he is, and move around Alonso, you're not trying to fix a problem that you don't already have.
    But that's assuming Votto will be below average in LF. Remember he was below average at 1B when he first came up, and now is at least average, getting close to above average.

    Seeing how he worked hard to improve his defense at 1B, I see no reason to think that he can't do the same at LF.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Or, you play Alonso in LF all season, so he has just as much/more expierence in the OF as Votto does.

    And no, it doesn't. If you move Votto to LF you make your defense worse at two positions. If you leave Votto where he is, and move around Alonso, you're not trying to fix a problem that you don't already have.
    It doesn't matter how much experience Alonso gets in left field, he will never be nearly as good as Votto out there because he can't run close to as well. And yes, the defense may get worse at two positions, but the question is this: Is the slight downgrade at 1B and Votto's defense in LF more of a downgrade than Votto at 1B and the absolute worst left fielder in baseball (which is likely what Alonso would be if he played there)? Making two spots worse defensively doesn't mean that its making the teams defense worse overall versus just one spot worse if that one spot is tremendously worse.

  7. #96
    Attack Cat! OUReds's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    If he might not be able to play reasonable defense at 1B then what can he do? I was just trying to be logical in following along with what you were posting. How about answering the questions that I asked? What is different about 1B defense between College/Minor Leagues and MLB?

    Bum
    In one you are facing college hitters, the other you are...not.

    In one you are receiving throws from college level pitchers and fielders, making it difficult to evaluate how well you would react to pro level fielders.

    Pressure.

    Again, I'm not claiming he can't play an acceptable 1st base. I have no earthly clue, which is my point. We just don't know yet.

  8. #97
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by OUReds View Post
    In one you are facing college hitters, the other you are...not.

    In one you are receiving throws from college level pitchers and fielders, making it difficult to evaluate how well you would react to pro level fielders.

    Pressure.

    Again, we I'm not claiming he can't play an acceptable 1st base. I have no earthly clue, which is my point. We just don't know yet.
    You don't know yet. The people in power know. Scouts know.

  9. #98
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    But that's assuming Votto will be below average in LF. Remember he was below average at 1B when he first came up, and now is at least average, getting close to above average.

    Seeing how he worked hard to improve his defense at 1B, I see no reason to think that he can't do the same at LF.
    So you're going to reward a guy who worked out to massively improve his defense, but moving his position and making him do it again? That makes sense.

  10. #99
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Here is what we know.... Joey Votto has over a third of a season's experience in playing left field. Joey Votto is faster than Yonder Alonso is. Joey Votto has a better arm than Yonder Alonso does. All of those suggests that Joey Votto would make a much better left fielder than Yonder Alonso will. We also know what Yonder Alonso is an average first baseman in the minors and that is likely to transfer forward to the majors.
    You continue to ignore the point being articulated by several people on this thread, though: these are real people we're talking about here, not players on a fantasy roster that can play anywhere they qualify at.

    What is Joey Votto's reaction to playing left? Does playing out of position impact his performance at the plate? Does playing out of position make him less likely to remain a Cincinnati Red if other teams want to let him move back to the position he's most comfortable at? What happens if the Reds move Votto and Yonder Alonso comes up and bombs as Brandon Larson v. 2.0? Does any of this make Votto unhappy enough to ask for a trade? What would the clubhouse be like if a player being asked to be a leader becomes a malcontent?

    Here's what we really know: Joey Votto is an elite hitter playing capable defense at 1st base. Yonder Alonso hasn't seen a pitch above AA ball (and, frankly, hasn't played as well as Joey Votto did when he was the same age and at the same level).

    You don't mess with Votto until Alonso is, literally, beating down the door to the majors with both fists at AAA. And, even then, you figure out if Alonso can play someplace else first (since he's in the minors and can tinker with his game without impacting the major league product) before you even consider moving Joey Votto.

    Incidentally, this is why you should be careful about drafting players who are so position-limited in the high rounds of the draft.
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  11. #100
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You don't know yet. The people in power know. Scouts know.
    But "the people in power" also think it's a good idea to move Alonso to LF/3B and leave Votto alone.

    So you don't know it's the right move, but they know.

  12. #101
    Attack Cat! OUReds's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You don't know yet. The people in power know. Scouts know.
    And all the scouts agree? What happens when the scouts disagree? Which is right? I'm not sure the scout's opinions on Yonder's defensive ability are..homogeneous.
    Last edited by OUReds; 03-01-2010 at 05:03 PM.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    You continue to ignore the point being articulated by several people on this thread, though: these are real people we're talking about here, not players on a fantasy roster that can play anywhere they qualify at.

    What is Joey Votto's reaction to playing left? Does playing out of position impact his performance at the plate? Does playing out of position make him less likely to remain a Cincinnati Red if other teams want to let him move back to the position he's most comfortable at? What happens if the Reds move Votto and Yonder Alonso comes up and bombs as Brandon Larson v. 2.0?

    Here's what we really know: Joey Votto is an elite hitter playing capable defense at 1st base. Yonder Alonso hasn't seen a pitch above AA ball (and, frankly, hasn't played as well as Joey Votto did when he was the same age and at the same level).

    You don't mess with Votto until Alonso is, literally, beating down the door to the majors with both fists at AAA. And, even then, you figure out if Alonso can play someplace else first (since he's in the minors and can tinker with his game without impacting the major league product) before you even consider moving Joey Votto.

    Incidentally, this is why you should be careful about drafting players who are so position-limited in the high rounds of the draft.
    Moving Joey Votto to LF, can do no good for Joey Votto. Only bad can come out of it for him.

  14. #103
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by OUReds View Post
    And all the scouts agree? What happens when the scouts disagree? Which is right?
    They just know.

  15. #104
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    I agree with everyone that says Alonso's days in the org are limited. That's why IMO he never steps foot off 1B. He plays every inning at 1B, be it at AA or AAA. You let him be as comfortable as possible in the field and let him rake at the plate, and then you get the most you can for him as you have maximized his value.

    And there isn't thing one wrong with that idea.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by OUReds View Post
    In one you are facing college hitters, the other you are...not.

    In one you are receiving throws from college level pitchers and fielders, making it difficult to evaluate how well you would react to pro level fielders.

    Pressure.

    Again, I'm not claiming he can't play an acceptable 1st base. I have no earthly clue, which is my point. We just don't know yet.
    Well, I'm still confused by what you are saying. In college they use aluminum bats and the balls jumps off the bat a lot faster. In college I am left to assume that the fielders aren't as accurate with their throws as they are in MLB; this also applies to the minors. In college and the minors the fields aren't as well manicured as MLB which would make it tougher to field and catch errant throws...I still don't see how Alonso's 1B defense in the minors/college will not translate to MLB? I think it will and really, I don't remember anyone ever questioning someone's 1B defense translating from the minors/college to MLB.

    Bum


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