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Thread: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

  1. #106
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Moving Joey Votto to LF, can do no good for Joey Votto. Only bad can come out of it for him.
    As far as I'm concerned, if Yonder Alonso is so good that he's worth moving a team's best player to bring up, then the Reds should have no trouble trading him to fill a spot they really need.

    Trade from surplus to acquire need. I look at Yonder Alonso and I see a giant, big, heaping help of surplus.
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  3. #107
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Players who get their feelings hurt over being asked to do something for the good of the team need to get over themselves. They get paid to play, not fill out the lineup cards. What is going to happen is going to happen and we aren't going to change that. But if Joey Votto is going to fall apart because someone asks him to play left field then I really hope we just trade him because if something slightly out of the norm happens to him he is going to just crumble.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    The Reds won the Pennant in 1970, after Rose moved to RF, and then again in 1972, after he moved to LF. They also started winning the first year that they moved him to the OF. Can't say those moves didn't help the ballclub win.
    However, that move also served to remove a borderline defensive butcher (Rose) from 2B, and replace him with an eventual two-time Gold Glove winner at 2B (Tommy Helms). Not the same ballpark, IMO.

    Also, Rose threw a fit in 1966 when the Reds moved him from 2B to 3B to make room for Helms--who was the eventual NL Rookie of the Year in '66. The "experiment" lasted only 16 games before Rose was moved back to 2B and Helms to 3B--even though Tommy's bat was too light for the hot corner and his glovework at 2B was lightyears ahead of Pete's.
    "Knowledge Is Good." -- Emil Faber

  5. #109
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, if Yonder Alonso is so good that he's worth moving a team's best player to bring up, then the Reds should have no trouble trading him to fill a spot they really need.

    Trade from surplus to acquire need. I look at Yonder Alonso and I see a giant, big, heaping help of surplus.
    And what if you can't get fair value in return because you can't play Alonso at the big league level because Joey will cry and throw a fit about it? If Alonso is indeed that good, then you keep him and move Votto to LF.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    You don't mess with Votto until Alonso is, literally, beating down the door to the majors with both fists at AAA. And, even then, you figure out if Alonso can play someplace else first (since he's in the minors and can tinker with his game without impacting the major league product) before you even consider moving Joey Votto.
    Agree all the way. Alonso's going to have to hit big in AAA before he's of any real value to the Reds. It would be a huge mistake to ask Votto to move until Alonso has proven himself at least that much.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  7. #111
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    And what if you can't get fair value in return because you can't play Alonso at the big league level because Joey will cry and throw a fit about it? If Alonso is indeed that good, then you keep him and move Votto to LF.
    Or maybe Joey mashes in LF and walks in a couple of years b/c he has zero loyalty to the organization.

  8. #112
    Member Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Alonso doesn't just not have good speed, he doesn't have average speed or probably even below average speed. He is probably a 30 runner. He is like a 4.6 guy to first base. As a lefty. That is SLOW. Like Sean Casey slow. You better run the most perfect routes to the ball as soon as it leaves the bat to overcome that kind of speed and given that he has never once played the outfield, I doubt that happens. So yeah, I don't know what kind of left fielder Alonso would make, and I don't know what kind of Major League hitter I would make.... but based on what I do know, its a very good chance that Alonso will be a terrible left fielder and that I would be the worst major league hitter of all time. I don't need to have done either to know both of those are extremely likely.
    If his speed is that poor, and he is that limited in the field, then ship him to the AL ASAP. Sounds like a DH to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, if Yonder Alonso is so good that he's worth moving a team's best player to bring up, then the Reds should have no trouble trading him to fill a spot they really need.

    Trade from surplus to acquire need. I look at Yonder Alonso and I see a giant, big, heaping help of surplus.
    I felt from the moment he was drafted that he would be Cincinnati's version of Matt LaPorta. I have said all along that I would be surprised if he ever plays an inning in a Reds uniform.
    "Knowledge Is Good." -- Emil Faber

  9. #113
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Agree all the way. Alonso's going to have to hit big in AAA before he's of any real value to the Reds. It would be a huge mistake to ask Votto to move until Alonso has proven himself at least that much.
    The problem is, if you wait until July when Alonso is hitting .300/.400/.550 in AAA, then you still don't get a chance to bring up Alonso and you have to make the decision in the offseason again, where if you get Votto some time now you may be able to make that decision in July and help the Reds at that point.

  10. #114
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    If his speed is that poor, and he is that limited in the field, then ship him to the AL ASAP. Sounds like a DH to me.
    You don't need speed to play first base. He doesn't play with a glove made of metal, he just can't run fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Or maybe Joey mashes in LF and walks in a couple of years b/c he has zero loyalty to the organization.
    He might do that anyways even if you keep him at first base.

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    And what if you can't get fair value in return because you can't play Alonso at the big league level because Joey will cry and throw a fit about it? If Alonso is indeed that good, then you keep him and move Votto to LF.
    If you can't get fair value for Alonso, and he can't play anywhere else but first base, frankly I'm of the mind you take less than fair value or package him with other prospects to get what you need.

    But, that's just me. I don't see the sense is tinkering one iota with the best hitter your organization has produced in almost 20 years and the guy you are, allegedly, building your team around. Especially when you'll be asking him to move to a position he's almost a lock to provide below-average defense at.

    Take what you can get for Alonso and move on.
    Championships Matter.
    23 Years and Counting...

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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    The problem is, if you wait until July when Alonso is hitting .300/.400/.550 in AAA, then you still don't get a chance to bring up Alonso and you have to make the decision in the offseason again, where if you get Votto some time now you may be able to make that decision in July and help the Reds at that point.
    Until Alonso does that, the team should not go about asking Votto to stop trying to make himself a Gold Glove first baseman.

    What you fail to see is that there is no guarantee Alonso will perform as well as you predict. What if they ask Votto to start working in LF and Alonso goes .270/.350/.440 in AAA? The organization would have made two blunders in one -- alienating Votto and misevaluating Alonso. That's a disaster, which is a lot worse than "a good problem to have," which is what they'd have if Alonso is as good in 2010 as you think he will be.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  13. #117
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    If his speed is that poor, and he is that limited in the field, then ship him to the AL ASAP. Sounds like a DH to me.




    I felt from the moment he was drafted that he would be Cincinnati's version of Matt LaPorta. I have said all along that I would be surprised if he ever plays an inning in a Reds uniform.
    Agree.

    If he can help bring a player like CC or Holiday, like Brett Wallace did, he'd be considered a great pick. Not sure he can, but that should be part of the plan imo.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  14. #118
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    The Reds won the Pennant in 1970, after Rose moved to RF, and then again in 1972, after he moved to LF. They also started winning the first year that they moved him to the OF. Can't say those moves didn't help the ballclub win.
    Pete was moved to LF in 1967 and then RF in 1968 and they didn't win until 1970, so it wasn't as slam bam as you'd like to believe it was.

  15. #119
    Attack Cat! OUReds's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    I still don't see how Alonso's 1B defense in the minors/college will not translate to MLB? I think it will and really, I don't remember anyone ever questioning someone's 1B defense translating from the minors/college to MLB.

    Bum
    And yet, it happens. Who has been the worst fielding 1st baseman the past few years? Prince Fielder? Richie Sexton? Kevin Millar?

    Everyone of them had some scouting reports out of the draft saying he should be "adequate at best" or "should be just fine" at 1st base.

    These are the same type of reports we are getting on Alonso. I'd like to actually see him play an adequate first base, or for that matter hit above AA, before we talk about displacing the best player on the team.
    Last edited by OUReds; 03-01-2010 at 05:33 PM.

  16. #120
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Pete was moved to LF in 1967 and then RF in 1968 and they didn't win until 1970, so it wasn't as slam bam as you'd like to believe it was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    However, that move also served to remove a borderline defensive butcher (Rose) from 2B, and replace him with an eventual two-time Gold Glove winner at 2B (Tommy Helms). Not the same ballpark, IMO.

    Also, Rose threw a fit in 1966 when the Reds moved him from 2B to 3B to make room for Helms--who was the eventual NL Rookie of the Year in '66. The "experiment" lasted only 16 games before Rose was moved back to 2B and Helms to 3B--even though Tommy's bat was too light for the hot corner and his glovework at 2B was lightyears ahead of Pete's.
    Agree there is no real comparison to Rose/Helms/Geronimo/everyone else he moved for and Alonso/Votto. Just pointing out that the move did help the Reds win. Maybe not a World Series, but it helped them win.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein


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