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Thread: The price of success

  1. #1
    Mr.Redlegs is my homeboy Eric_the_Red's Avatar
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    The price of success

    I think we all can agree that this year it looks like the Reds could be a darkhouse team for the Wild Card. And, of course, we all want the Reds to succeed.

    However, if the Reds do manage to make the playoffs this year, doesn't that all but guarantee an extension to Dusty Baker?

    So, would you accept a playoff appearance if it means another 2-4 years of Dusty as manager? Or, would you prefer the team maybe finish a game or two above .500 if it meant a new (unknown) manager next year?

    Personally, I'm on the fence with Dusty. His apparent lack of statistical knowledge frustrates me, but I do think he is a great manager of ballplayers (good clubhouse guy). I still think I would take a few more toothpick chomping years if it meant a winning season that led to playoff baseball returning to Cincinnati.

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    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    If we are successful I will be happy. Remember, there is no guarantee Dusty's replacement would be an improvement.

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_the_Red View Post
    I think we all can agree that this year it looks like the Reds could be a darkhouse team for the Wild Card. And, of course, we all want the Reds to succeed.

    However, if the Reds do manage to make the playoffs this year, doesn't that all but guarantee an extension to Dusty Baker?

    So, would you accept a playoff appearance if it means another 2-4 years of Dusty as manager? Or, would you prefer the team maybe finish a game or two above .500 if it meant a new (unknown) manager next year?

    Personally, I'm on the fence with Dusty. His apparent lack of statistical knowledge frustrates me, but I do think he is a great manager of ballplayers (good clubhouse guy). I still think I would take a few more toothpick chomping years if it meant a winning season that led to playoff baseball returning to Cincinnati.
    If Dusty gets this team to the playoffs, then I think an extension would be justified. Success on the field means a lot more to me than the BS around his lineup constructions and whatever else people want to complain about.

  5. #4
    Battle Toad Historian thatcoolguy_22's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    I'm in the boat that thinks the manager MIGHT decide the outcome to about 3-5 games a year. He drives me crazy with the decisions that he makes sometimes, but I would gladly take a playoff trip if it meant 10 more years of dusty.
    "Last week I helped my friend stay put. It's a lot easier'n helpin' 'em move. I just went over to his house and made sure that he did not start to load **** into a truck."

  6. #5
    I can do the Hully Gully IowaRed's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    I'll be the one dissenting vote. My personal dislike for Baker doesn't allow me to cheer on the Reds team like I have since the early 70's. I haven't spent any money on the Reds since he took over, no gear, no trips to Cincinnati or anywhere else to see them, and no spring training. Although that isn't the only decision management has made over the years to get me into this mode, it is the main one. It was my wife a couple of years ago who voted against getting rid of the baseball package on DirecTV. I am more than ready for a manager I can fully support. I am still a fan of most of the players but I can EASILY deal with another losing season if it means a new manager next year.
    More often than not, when someone is telling me a story all I can think about is that I can't wait for them to finish so that I can tell my own story that's not only better, but also more directly involves me.

  7. #6
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Quote Originally Posted by thatcoolguy_22 View Post
    I'm in the boat that thinks the manager MIGHT decide the outcome to about 3-5 games a year. He drives me crazy with the decisions that he makes sometimes, but I would gladly take a playoff trip if it meant 10 more years of dusty.
    I am becoming more and more a believer in the idea that players make manager and not vice versa. With the exception of lineup makeup, which I think is a tad bit over blown, Dusty has really dispelled most of his criticisms. He hasn't catered to the older players. I think he has handled the pitching staff nicely during his tenure as manager. I don't think his in game decisions are any worse than any other manager out there.

    If the Reds make the playoffs or find themselves in contention this season Dusty does deserve an extension. If they have another sub .500 season then Dusty deserves the boot.

  8. #7
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    IR, you won't be the only dissenting voice. My enjoyment of Reds baseball has been reduced significantly since Baker arrived and I would not want a playoff appearance at the cost of his extension.

    While I don't believe a manager's tactical decisions mean more than a small handful of games in the big picture, I worry for both missed opportunities in the advancement of young players who don't clearly force their way in to the picture and for the health of our young arms.

    Ironically enough, I think managers are more likely to do significant harm or benefit in the macro than in the micro.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 03-02-2010 at 09:27 AM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  9. #8
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Is following the Reds under Baker any worse than when Narron, Boone or Knight was manager? Or Miley? They're all the same if you look at it objectively, except Dusty actually has had a modicum of success while the others haven't at all.

  10. #9
    Mr.Redlegs is my homeboy Eric_the_Red's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Agree with WOY. Boone infuriated me as a manager. I've blacked out more memories of those days as a coping mechanism.

    I am curious to the percevied value of a manager. If managers aren't really important to the team W/L record, why does it matter who is manager? Wouldn't you root for the Reds to win regardless if it is Dusty or Sparky Anderson?

    Or, if managers play a vital part in team success, wouldn't making the playoffs validate Dusty as a good manager? Wouldn't Reds fans want a good manager in the dugout?

    Just trying to understand those who wouldn't want a winning season just because of more Dusty.

  11. #10
    I can do the Hully Gully IowaRed's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Yes, following Reds baseball is much worse under Baker than any other manager in my lifetime. RMR mentioned a couple of reasons, here are a few more. Baseball is not a completely objective game and I can't be completely objective about the people in baseball either. I have disliked Baker for a very long time before he was associated with the Reds and becoming a Red does not erase those feelings. Once a 70's/80's Dodger always a 70's/80's Dodger, once a Cub always a Cub. If Garvey or Cey became the Reds manager, I would start out feeling the same negativity. If they both had acted and spoke the way Baker does and if they both managed the way Baker does, my opinion of them would continue, not improve
    More often than not, when someone is telling me a story all I can think about is that I can't wait for them to finish so that I can tell my own story that's not only better, but also more directly involves me.

  12. #11
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_the_Red View Post
    I am curious to the percevied value of a manager. If managers aren't really important to the team W/L record, why does it matter who is manager? Wouldn't you root for the Reds to win regardless if it is Dusty or Sparky Anderson?

    Or, if managers play a vital part in team success, wouldn't making the playoffs validate Dusty as a good manager? Wouldn't Reds fans want a good manager in the dugout?
    You would think.

    I think that, even if Cincy wins 90 games this season, in the eyes of some they would have won 95 under someone else just because he didn't manage the bullpen better, or because his lineup construction didn't mesh with certain beliefs, or for some other reason.

  13. #12
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    I would never root against my team to not make the playoffs. I'm far from Dusty Baker's biggest fan, but he's not bad enough to the point where I'm rooting against the Reds to make the playoffs for fear of him receiving a contract extension. I'm starved for playoff baseball in Cincinnati. I would like to see the Reds replace Baker after this season, but if a playoff appearance in 2010 results in two more years of Dusty then so be it, IMO. They could always replace him halfway through the extension if needed.
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 03-02-2010 at 10:54 AM.

  14. #13
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Quote Originally Posted by IowaRed View Post
    Yes, following Reds baseball is much worse under Baker than any other manager in my lifetime. RMR mentioned a couple of reasons, here are a few more. Baseball is not a completely objective game and I can't be completely objective about the people in baseball either. I have disliked Baker for a very long time before he was associated with the Reds and becoming a Red does not erase those feelings. Once a 70's/80's Dodger always a 70's/80's Dodger, once a Cub always a Cub. If Garvey or Cey became the Reds manager, I would start out feeling the same negativity. If they both had acted and spoke the way Baker does and if they both managed the way Baker does, my opinion of them would continue, not improve
    I can't pull up the hate for teams in the 70's and instill them in today's world view, can't do it, but can see how it happens. I've always seen Dusty more as the Giants manager than anything else prior to coming to Cincinnati, he nor it never bothered me.

  15. #14
    I can do the Hully Gully IowaRed's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    understood, if I thought he was a good manager or somebody I thought made sense on and off the field I could temper those old feelings better. That same emotional part of baseball keeps me tied to the Reds despite my feelings about Baker. If I could have broken my 30+ year affair with the Reds it would have happened the minute he was hired.
    More often than not, when someone is telling me a story all I can think about is that I can't wait for them to finish so that I can tell my own story that's not only better, but also more directly involves me.

  16. #15
    Member durl's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    If the Reds make the playoffs, Baker will have earned an extension, IMO. Isn't the whole goal to make it to the postseason, not to have a manager that everyone likes?

    That being said, if the Reds do make the playoffs, I still wouldn't give Dusty a 5-year extension. I would say that a couple of years would be just fine.


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