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Thread: The price of success

  1. #16
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Although it's all speculation at this point, a more probable scenario could very well be an intermediate one: The team does well (say 83-79) and misses the playoffs by a few games. Baker is given an extension after producing the first winning season in a decade.

    A truly tragic outcome, since those 3-5 "manager" wins (which Dusty is on the wrong side of), could have put the team in the post-season, plus the weight of Dusty's incompetence will affect the team's chances for years to come.
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  3. #17
    Attack Cat! OUReds's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Since I like Dusty in the grand scheme of things, it would pretty much be a win-win for me!

  4. #18
    Member VR's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Dusty is not my # choice....but he's proven himself to be a very good leader of the team.
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand

  5. #19
    Mr.Redlegs is my homeboy Eric_the_Red's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    Although it's all speculation at this point, a more probable scenario could very well be an intermediate one: The team does well (say 83-79) and misses the playoffs by a few games. Baker is given an extension after producing the first winning season in a decade.

    A truly tragic outcome, since those 3-5 "manager" wins (which Dusty is on the wrong side of), could have put the team in the post-season, plus the weight of Dusty's incompetence will affect the team's chances for years to come.

    Is that quantifiable? If so, why aren't all managers graded this way?

  6. #20
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    Re: The price of success

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    IR, you won't be the only dissenting voice. My enjoyment of Reds baseball has been reduced significantly since Baker arrived and I would not want a playoff appearance at the cost of his extension.
    I find this mind-boggling. Step back for a second and think about this.

  7. #21
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    I find this mind-boggling. Step back for a second and think about this.
    It's not the extension that I'd be worried about. It's the implications on the years 2011 and beyond. I'd much rather be set up for success for the foreseeable future than put that future at increased risk of never coming for the sake of a single playoff appearance.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  8. #22
    Moderator Plus Plus's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Very few, if any, managers seem to 'optimize' lineups according to a stat-evident rhyme or reason. Dusty Baker is clearly the antithesis of a stat-optimized lineup. However, Baker doesn't take the field, hit, catch, or pitch. If the Reds fail this year, next year, or for the next decade (again), then I think it will be safe to say that the players on the team were not good enough to win and that it isn't due to Baker thoroughly sabotaging the lineups of the team.

    A manager is like the conductor of an orchestra- they receive too much blame when the going is bad, and too much praise when the going is good. Frankly, I am apathetic to who the manager is for the Reds, especially if they start winning.
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  9. #23
    Member Strikes Out Looking's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    I don't have the dislike for Dusty that I did for Narron or Boone. If he leads the team to the playoffs, I have no problem with him sticking around for another 3 years or so.
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  10. #24
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Anybody who'd rather the Reds didn't succeed so they could satiate their need to bag on Dusty Baker needs to have their head examined as far as I'm concerned.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  11. #25
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Dusty is just another baseball guy shaped by the era he grew up in and the one he played in, if making a lineup was the only attribute that defined a managers worth to an organization then I suspect someone might have figured that out awhile ago.

    As it stands he's just another guy with a baseball opinion who happens to drive most crazy, after he's gone another one will come and take his place.

  12. #26
    Member 11larkin11's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    The hate for Dusty on this board is astounding. Sure, his lineups aren't perfect, but people here wanted LaRussa, and that guy batted his pitcher 8th. If Baker did that, this place would go insane.

    Lets face it. The guy has a pennant, 3 time Manager of the Year, he's 100 games over .500 in his career, even with these two in Cincinnati, been in the playoffs 4 times since '97, how many times have our Reds been in the playoffs in that time?

    Face it, the guy is a real manager. He isn't Bob Boone, Jerry Narron, Dave Miley, or Pete Mackanin (sp?). If he wins, I don't see why people would be against giving him an extension.
    Last edited by 11larkin11; 03-02-2010 at 02:04 PM.
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  13. #27
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    Anybody who'd rather the Reds didn't succeed so they could satiate their need to bag on Dusty Baker needs to have their head examined as far as I'm concerned.

    I have to agree. I just don't get it.
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  14. #28
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    Re: The price of success

    I wouldn't care if they extended Dusty tomorrow.

    I have heard the same complaints about every Reds manager since Sparky Anderson, and I'm pretty sure he could have drawn names out of a hat to put together a line-up and still would have won. Sweet Lou may be the exception, but I remember "Sports Talk" on WLW, and even he was hounded on pretty much.

    Let's face it, until a manager goes 162-0, someone is going to find something to complain about, and even then, folks are going to question decisions.

    If you want a statistics-driven field manager, it first has to come from a statistics-driven FO. I see no signs of a sabermetric savy FO in RedsLand. Which means that if you don't keep Dusty, all you are going to do is rearrange the deck chairs of the Titanic and bring in another old school manager who is going to bat Brandon Phillips in the clean-up spot. The only thing that will change is a different philosophy of doing things the same old way, and it sets the team back another couple years from actually contending.
    Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one, and they don't want someone else's shoved into their face.

  15. #29
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    Anybody who'd rather the Reds didn't succeed so they could satiate their need to bag on Dusty Baker needs to have their head examined as far as I'm concerned.
    I get worried that a run at the playoffs likely means injuries to Cueto/Bailey in the future with the way that Dusty treats pitchers. If we can go 79-83 and lose Baker and still have the same team going forward, I would feel MUCH better about that scenario than knowing we made the playoffs but Dusty was running our pitching staff in August, September and October of 2010 and was coming back the next 2-4 seasons.

  16. #30
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: The price of success

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I get worried that a run at the playoffs likely means injuries to Cueto/Bailey in the future with the way that Dusty treats pitchers. If we can go 79-83 and lose Baker and still have the same team going forward, I would feel MUCH better about that scenario than knowing we made the playoffs but Dusty was running our pitching staff in August, September and October of 2010 and was coming back the next 2-4 seasons.
    Likely?


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