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Thread: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

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    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    Cincinnati Reds: The Looming Tower

    Will Leitch will be previewing/musing on every baseball team each weekday until the start of the season. You can pre-order his book and follow him on Twitter.

    Today: The Cincinnati Reds.

    As a fan of a similarly hued National League Central team a team I'm watching play at Roger Dean Stadium in Jupiter this very second no team in the division scares me as much as the Reds do. Everything about them is personally threatening.

    The resourceful and extremely motivated leader-in-exile. General manager Walt Jocketty, still angry about being unceremonious booted by the organization he resuscitated and brought a championship to. Jocketty was encouraged to leave by a change in the Cardinals' strategic emphasis, toward the farm system and advanced statistics, away from waiting for other teams to panic and do something stupid at the trading deadline. He's still bothered that Tony LaRussa didn't leave with him, too. Jocketty wants to take down the Cardinals more than he wants to do anything.

    The dunderheaded but formidable manager. The oft-maligned Dusty Baker loves nothing more than setting fire to young pitchers' arms and handing 700 plate appearances to short fast men who come to the plate with the bat upside down. But Baker has a funny habit of sticking around in spite of himself the man has reached a World Series and two NLCS with two different teams after all and has the distinct advantage of driving LaRussa absolutely crazy. The hatred Baker and Don Tony have for each other is palpable and consistently entertaining; Reds-Cardinals series inevitably end up with batters pointing their helmets and pitchers and the managers growling at each other from opposite dugouts, two middle-aged men whose stomachs hang over their uniform belts, playing tough guy. It's grand theater.

    The sleeping city desperate for a revival. Cincinnati and St. Louis are more similar cities than is often noted. A baseball tradition unrivalled by any city other than New York or Boston. An urban sensibility that's both more cosmopolitan and more backwoods that anyone on either side of the extreme is willing to admit. A downtown area that's far lovelier than people realize and vastly underutilized. The impossibility of grabbing a bit to eat past 9:30 p.m. without having to find a casino. A simmering history of racial divisiveness. The color red. The difference is that, baseball-wise, Cincinnati has been dormant as St. Louis has been ascendant; the Reds are long, long overdue. I've spent many, many evenings in Cincinnati, and that town is rabid to care about its Reds again. If they get hot and are close in September, that place will froth into a frenzy. It will carry them.

    Oh, yes, the players. The Reds always seems to have one or two studs on the farm "studs on the farm" is a trademarked phrase and is not to be used without written consent of the Baseball Writers Association Of America who never end up becoming what dreams had held, but these days they seem likely to break that spell by sheer volume. I mean, look at these guys: Yonder Alonso, Homer Bailey, Jay Bruce, Aroldis Chapman, Johnny Cueto, Drew Stubbs, Edinson Volquez (currently injured), Joey Votto. All of those guys are Major League ready or close to it, and all are 26 years old or younger. Not of all of them will be stars. But all of them could be, and there isn't a team in baseball who wouldn't take any of them in an Irish second. The Reds get to keep each of them, as they develop and approach their peak right now. The Reds have upside and length.

    The Chicago Cubs have missed their window and are about to begin a long, slow beautiful slide back to where they belonged all along. The Brewers can't ever make all their pieces work at the same time. The Pirates are slowly crawling back to sea level but have years left to go. The Astros are a joke. No, it's the Reds: The Reds seem uniquely positioned to humiliate the beloved Cardinals and stop a second mini-NL Central dynasty before it begins. It's worse, too, because no team would enjoy it more. There is righteous revenge and furious anger to those who seek to destroy my brothers. That's the team that keeps me up nights. That's the team that could turn this all wrong for us. It's the Reds, man. It's the Reds. I'm terrified of them.

    You know what's the only thing that makes me feel better about all this? I say this about the Reds every year.

    http://deadspin.com/5486157/cincinna...yline=true&s=i

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  3. #2
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    Well hell then. What an article from the creator of Deadspin. The Reds really have everyone's attention this year. Will be interesting to see if they can live up to it.

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    Member Phhhl's Avatar
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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Cincinnati Reds: The Looming Tower

    Will Leitch will be previewing/musing on every baseball team each weekday until the start of the season. You can pre-order his book and follow him on Twitter.

    Today: The Cincinnati Reds.

    As a fan of a similarly hued National League Central team — a team I'm watching play at Roger Dean Stadium in Jupiter this very second — no team in the division scares me as much as the Reds do. Everything about them is personally threatening.

    The resourceful and extremely motivated leader-in-exile. General manager Walt Jocketty, still angry about being unceremonious booted by the organization he resuscitated and brought a championship to. Jocketty was encouraged to leave by a change in the Cardinals' strategic emphasis, toward the farm system and advanced statistics, away from waiting for other teams to panic and do something stupid at the trading deadline. He's still bothered that Tony LaRussa didn't leave with him, too. Jocketty wants to take down the Cardinals more than he wants to do anything.

    The dunderheaded but formidable manager. The oft-maligned Dusty Baker loves nothing more than setting fire to young pitchers' arms and handing 700 plate appearances to short fast men who come to the plate with the bat upside down. But Baker has a funny habit of sticking around in spite of himself — the man has reached a World Series and two NLCS with two different teams after all — and has the distinct advantage of driving LaRussa absolutely crazy. The hatred Baker and Don Tony have for each other is palpable and consistently entertaining; Reds-Cardinals series inevitably end up with batters pointing their helmets and pitchers and the managers growling at each other from opposite dugouts, two middle-aged men whose stomachs hang over their uniform belts, playing tough guy. It's grand theater.

    The sleeping city desperate for a revival. Cincinnati and St. Louis are more similar cities than is often noted. A baseball tradition unrivalled by any city other than New York or Boston. An urban sensibility that's both more cosmopolitan and more backwoods that anyone on either side of the extreme is willing to admit. A downtown area that's far lovelier than people realize and vastly underutilized. The impossibility of grabbing a bit to eat past 9:30 p.m. without having to find a casino. A simmering history of racial divisiveness. The color red. The difference is that, baseball-wise, Cincinnati has been dormant as St. Louis has been ascendant; the Reds are long, long overdue. I've spent many, many evenings in Cincinnati, and that town is rabid to care about its Reds again. If they get hot and are close in September, that place will froth into a frenzy. It will carry them.

    Oh, yes, the players. The Reds always seems to have one or two studs on the farm — "studs on the farm" is a trademarked phrase and is not to be used without written consent of the Baseball Writers Association Of America — who never end up becoming what dreams had held, but these days they seem likely to break that spell by sheer volume. I mean, look at these guys: Yonder Alonso, Homer Bailey, Jay Bruce, Aroldis Chapman, Johnny Cueto, Drew Stubbs, Edinson Volquez (currently injured), Joey Votto. All of those guys are Major League ready or close to it, and all are 26 years old or younger. Not of all of them will be stars. But all of them could be, and there isn't a team in baseball who wouldn't take any of them in an Irish second. The Reds get to keep each of them, as they develop and approach their peak right now. The Reds have upside and length.

    The Chicago Cubs have missed their window and are about to begin a long, slow beautiful slide back to where they belonged all along. The Brewers can't ever make all their pieces work at the same time. The Pirates are slowly crawling back to sea level but have years left to go. The Astros are a joke. No, it's the Reds: The Reds seem uniquely positioned to humiliate the beloved Cardinals and stop a second mini-NL Central dynasty before it begins. It's worse, too, because no team would enjoy it more. There is righteous revenge and furious anger to those who seek to destroy my brothers. That's the team that keeps me up nights. That's the team that could turn this all wrong for us. It's the Reds, man. It's the Reds. I'm terrified of them.

    You know what's the only thing that makes me feel better about all this? I say this about the Reds every year.

    http://deadspin.com/5486157/cincinna...yline=true&s=i
    Don't try to kiss up. We expect to win and we hate your guts. How about that?
    Last edited by Phhhl; 03-06-2010 at 01:36 AM.

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    Member 11larkin11's Avatar
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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    I really want a rivalry. Cubs/Cardinals are obvious choices, but it depends on who you hate more, the fans (Cubs) or the organiztion as a whole (Cardinals)? I guess we (Browns/Bengals fans) can all hate the Ravens AND Steelers, so we can hate the Cubs and Cardinals equally too right?

    Probably not. God I hate the Steelers. And Art Modell. But I digress.
    Domo Arigato, Here Comes Joey Votto

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    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    It doesn't really matter how much Reds fans hate the Cards or Cubs.

    The rivalry will always be St. Louis vs Chicago and vice verse. It's been that way forever.

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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    It doesn't really matter how much Reds fans hate the Cards or Cubs.

    The rivalry will always be St. Louis vs Chicago and vice verse. It's been that way forever.
    Agree. Our best chance, given the current scheduling nonsense, for a real rivalry is a revival in Pittsburgh.

  8. #7
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    I didn't know LaRussa and Dusty carried such animosity towards each other.

    Pay attention to the open sky

  9. #8
    Oy Vey! Red in Chicago's Avatar
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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    i love his description of baker:

    The dunderheaded but formidable manager. The oft-maligned Dusty Baker loves nothing more than setting fire to young pitchers' arms and handing 700 plate appearances to short fast men who come to the plate with the bat upside down. But Baker has a funny habit of sticking around in spite of himself

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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    I'd agree with this part:
    The Chicago Cubs have missed their window and are about to begin a long, slow beautiful slide back to where they belonged all along. The Brewers can't ever make all their pieces work at the same time. The Pirates are slowly crawling back to sea level but have years left to go. The Astros are a joke.
    I think the Reds are in pretty good shape for the next 5+ years compared to the rest of the division. That's something to feel good about even if it can't happen soon enough.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  11. #10
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    I'd agree with this part:

    I think the Reds are in pretty good shape for the next 5+ years compared to the rest of the division. That's something to feel good about even if it can't happen soon enough.
    The Cards have Wainwright and Carpenter, Pujols and Holiday. If Bailey, Chapman, Bruce and Votto have everything go right, they probably still won't be as good as the St. Louis core. The Reds best bet is adding Cueto, Volquez and Leake to the mix to make a dominant rotation and dealing off several of the lower ceiling, but still pretty good, near ready guys for one more impact offensive player. If Votto to LF is out, then I doubt we see a day with all three of Votto, Bruce and Alonso in the line-up together. The rest of the offensive guys are several cuts below those three. That's asking for a lot of things that haven't happened yet to go right, but the pieces to the puzzle are mostly there now. The Reds just need to make the right couple of moves to make them fit together and backfill for the ones who don't work out.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Agree. Our best chance, given the current scheduling nonsense, for a real rivalry is a revival in Pittsburgh.
    And that would be awesome. Although its has been a rivalry of late, but in a bad way, with both teams going head to head in September with their quasi farm teams, duking it out for the highly coveted next to last position in the division
    Can't win with 'em

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    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    The Cards have Wainwright and Carpenter, Pujols and Holiday. If Bailey, Chapman, Bruce and Votto have everything go right, they probably still won't be as good as the St. Louis core. The Reds best bet is adding Cueto, Volquez and Leake to the mix to make a dominant rotation and dealing off several of the lower ceiling, but still pretty good, near ready guys for one more impact offensive player. If Votto to LF is out, then I doubt we see a day with all three of Votto, Bruce and Alonso in the line-up together. The rest of the offensive guys are several cuts below those three. That's asking for a lot of things that haven't happened yet to go right, but the pieces to the puzzle are mostly there now. The Reds just need to make the right couple of moves to make them fit together and backfill for the ones who don't work out.
    Some good points. But the part of the article that I quoted was referring to every other team in the division except the Cardinals. That said, I think there's a chance that the Reds could fight it out with the Cards for the division starting in 2011. All you have to do is look at the rotations for one reason why. Carpenter and Wainwright are strong but the health of Carpenter isn't exactly the most reliable and I think the Reds could have a better rotation anyway from top to bottom. Add in the payrolls after this season and farm systems and I think the Reds are still in pretty good shape relatively speaking. Throw in the fact that with the wild card the Reds don't need to win the division to make the playoffs and I think we could see the Reds in the hunt for the playoffs in September in the not too distant future.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  14. #13
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    The most interesting part of the article was the insight on Jocketty and the rift between Baker and LaRussa. I'm not sure I know of another rivalry where the real vitriol is between management.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    Of course I think we can overtake the Cardinals even with their big four. But it will be made easier if they cannot retain all 3 of Pujols, Wainwright, and Carpenter.

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    Re: A Cardinals fans' opinion on the Reds

    The Cubs and Cards are clearly the #1 Rivalry right now in the division. But IF the Reds start winning and the Cubs really fall back I truly believe the Reds and Cards could have a heck of a rivalry. Imagine a mid September Saturday Night, St. Louis in town, Reds lead the Division by 1 game over the Cards as they take the field to a sea of Red in the stands. I want it. I'm 19, the closest thing I have seen the Reds to contending was 2006. Sad.
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